Why Buck's Row?

[John G]

I assume then that Annie Chapman was in a strange back yard in the wee small hours discussing the architecture?
Or Polly Nichols saying that she was going to get her doss money in the early hours meant that she was off to a cash machine?
Or Stride, if memory serves, being registered as a prostitute in Sweden. Why would she change her habits when living in a cess-pit like Whitechapel?
Surely it's obvious that these women, along with thousands of others earned money from prostitution out of sheer desperation?
Even if they weren't (or only resorted to prostitution at the they're lowest ebb) the fact that they were out, possibly drunk, in the early hours might lead a killer who hated prostitutes to assume that they were.

Whether they were soliciting or not, and frankly there's scant evidence for this in most cases, is incidental. They were targeted not because of their profession but because they were vulnerable. Compare, for example, Peter Sutcliffe, who targeted both prostitutes and non-prostitutes.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Whether they were soliciting or not, and frankly there's scant evidence for this in most cases, is incidental. They were targeted not because of their profession but because they were vulnerable. Compare, for example, Peter Sutcliffe, who targeted both prostitutes and non-prostitutes.

My memory might be faulty here John but wasn't it only Jayne Macdonald? that wasn't a known prostitute? Didn't the police feel that she had been mistaken for one?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Herlock,

There is evidence that Annie Chapman was carried into the back yard of 29 Hanbury Street.

There is evidence that Elizabeth Stride, murdered in Dutfield's Yard, was not Elizabeth Gustaffsdotter from Sweden.

But if you want to cling [cuz it's easy] to the JtR/down on prostitutes trope, please be my guest.

Regards,

Simon

[Herlock Sholmes]

I remember an earlier 'possible' victim in a country lane. She wasn't a prostitute and she survived.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

There is evidence that Annie Chapman was carried into the back yard of 29 Hanbury Street.

There is evidence that Elizabeth Stride, murdered in Dutfield's Yard, was not Elizabeth Gustaffsdotter from Sweden.

But if you want to cling [cuz it's easy] to the JtR/down on prostitutes trope, please be my guest.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,

I can't recall anyone at the time thinking that she'd been carried into the yard at Hanbury Street?

This is not 'clinging to a trope.' Even if they weren't full-time prostitutes these were desperately poor women who had almost no other means of support. I can't recall the exact figure but weren't there 80,000 prostitutes in the east end? Prostitution amongst the poorest class of women was rife. It's overwhelmingly likely that at least some of them resorted to prostitution.

I'm not saying that they were killed due to some hatred of prostitutes but it's a possibility. A sexual motive or just a hatred of women in general are also possible motives. Not as exciting as a conspiracy but hey...

[John G]

I remember an earlier 'possible' victim in a country lane. She wasn't a prostitute and she survived.

Hi Herlock,

His first known victim was a 14 year old school girl who he attacked down a quiet country lane. All of his six latter victims, two of whom survived, were non- prostitutes. In fact, one of these surviving victims was just 16 years old, and was attacked whilst returning home after buying some cigarettes.

Sutcliffe himself acknowledge that, following the murder of Vera Millwood, "I now realised I had the urge to kill any woman and I thought this would eventually get me caught but I think in my subconscious this is what I really wanted."

[David Orsam]

There is evidence that Annie Chapman was carried into the back yard of 29 Hanbury Street.

Hi Simon,

If you are actually considering evidence now, what about the testimony of Amelia Farmer, who, unlike you, actually knew Chapman, and who said of her:

"...she was not very particular what she did to earn a living and at times used to remain out very late at night...the last five years she had been living an irregular life."

What do you think she meant by that?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Herlock,

Forgive a spot of self-publicity, but there is a section in the revised edition of my book which deals with the subject of Annie Chapman possibly being carried into the back yard of 29 Hanbury Street.

Regards,

Simon

[David Orsam]

There is evidence that Elizabeth Stride, murdered in Dutfield's Yard, was not Elizabeth Gustaffsdotter from Sweden.

But not sufficiently convincing evidence for you to include in your book?

[Joshua Rogan]

I can't recall anyone at the time thinking that she'd been carried into the yard at Hanbury St

Dr Phillips didn't think so, according to the Telegraph;

"In your opinion did she enter the yard alive? - I am positive of it. I made a thorough search of the passage, and I saw no trace of blood, which must have been visible had she been taken into the yard."

[David Orsam]

Forgive a spot of self-publicity, but there is a section in the revised edition of my book which deals with the subject of Annie Chapman possibly being carried into the back yard of 29 Hanbury Street.

In view of the evidence of her friend, Ameila Farmer, it doesn't matter for the purpose of this discussion exactly where Annie Chapman was murdered, for she was obviously a prostitute.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Also with regard to Chapman John Richardson said that he'd had cause to turn men and women out of the passageway in the past. This was obviously a regularly used haunt for prostitutes.

About MJK not being a prostitute:

Lizzie Albrook said, speaking of Kelly: "...and warned me against going on the streets as she had done."

Elizabeth Foster: "She was as nice a woman as one could find, and although she was an unfortunate,..."

Julia Venturney: "I have heard him (Barnett) say that he didn't like her going out on the streets."

I think we see a pattern here....

[David Orsam]

About MJK not being a prostitute:

Lizzie Albrook said, speaking of Kelly: "...and warned me against going on the streets as she had done."

Elizabeth Foster: "She was as nice a woman as one could find, and although she was an unfortunate,..."

Julia Venturney: "I have heard him (Barnett) say that he didn't like her going out on the streets."

I think we see a pattern here....

To which we can add the statement of Joseph Barnett: "I have lived with her altogether about 18 months...until last Tuesday week when in consequence of...her resorting to prostitution, I resolved on leaving her...She also told me that she had obtained her livelihood as a prostitute for some considerable time before I took her from the streets."

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Pens down, boys and girls. Close your books. Pay attention.

Mr. Awesome is here to tell us what's what.

But it's becoming increasingly obvious that Mr. Awesome has not read my book.

Regards,

Simon

[Herlock Sholmes]

To which we can add the statement of Joseph Barnett: "I have lived with her altogether about 18 months...until last Tuesday week when in consequence of...her resorting to prostitution, I resolved on leaving her...She also told me that she had obtained her livelihood as a prostitute for some considerable time before I took her from the streets."

David,

How do you deduce that MJK made her living?