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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Elizabeth Stride

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  #11  
Old 11-14-2016, 12:07 PM
ChrisGeorge ChrisGeorge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
According to the map legend, the cross indicates a stable.
Thanks for the correction, Jerry. That also explains why those buildings are behind the buildings on the main streets.
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  #12  
Old 11-14-2016, 03:30 PM
drstrange169 drstrange169 is offline
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Hello Charles,

Welcome to the boards.

Fellow poster RichardH has created a 3D walk through of Dutfield's Yard.

I can't guarantee it is 100% perfect, but it's pretty darn close!

It will give you a good feel for what it was like.

http://autumnofterror.com

Mrs Stride had no shortage of places to run to, there was a shop on the corner that was open and people either standing in doorways or at the very least, open doors.
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  #13  
Old 11-14-2016, 11:48 PM
Charles Daniels Charles Daniels is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
The entrance to the yard between the Club and no. 42 is just to the left of the S of (Berner ) STRE(et), and 678 is the first of the three tenements (sometimes called cottages) mentioned by Wess in his evidence. Just to the right of 678 is the toilet block, and the gap you mention gives access to these, but may also give access to the back yard of the public house on the corner (The Nelson, I think), and possibly the back yards of the adjoining houses.
Hmm...well this makes me wonder

I mean 0 out of 10 for romance, but couldn't the toilet block be used for some level of secure privacy?

I guess I don't know how Victorian toilet blocks were set up. But if I judge by some pubs in Oxford (not perfect I know) then when you have these separate toilet blocks, often you've got simply a few doors, where you can go in and lock it, and essentially have a private room. Or, if it's laid out like another period pub I know, you've got a larger room but still an area which can be locked with a solid door -- so there would be other people in there, but if you time it right you could easily get into the room and quickly make your way and lock the door. If I think of pubs in the Whitechapel area, then The Ten Bells has a warren of dark spaces within the back of the pub itself, but I'm not sure what it would have been like exactly in 1888. It would be riskier than a separate toilet block that's for sure.

Quote:
Unfortunately the map doesn't show actual gates or doorways, so no way to tell if this is a low wooden fence, gate or blank unscalable 10 ft wall.
This is why I think the Pall Mall Gazette article is so important.
It rather kills the idea that we are dealing with a secure, inescapable location.

Quote:
The sack factory is exactly what it sounds like, a factory for making sacks, run by Messrs Hindley and Co. Possibly just a shed where sack cloth was stitched into bags. I believe that somewhere in the evidence there is reference to women working piecemeal, turning up to collect cloth and deliver finished sacks, so it may have been used mostly for storage.
Hmmm the thing I'm wondering there is, who would have late night access to that storage area. Probably a total non-starter that thought though for a number of reasons.

Quote:
Crossed out buildings indicate stables (horses being abundant at the time).
AH! Excellent point! Victorian car parks.

Quote:
From memory, Dutfield (after whom the yard was named) originally made carts there, but not by 1888. So the stables accessible from the yard were no longer used for horses. I suspect the Omnibus Company stables beyond them would have been very busy, though.
The brown building indicates wooden construction (pink being brick) and housed the printing office above an open area (possibly once a blacksmiths) which gives access to a stable block. Again, no way of telling if this in turn led to the back yards of more houses, assuming it could even be opened itself.
Wow! Thank you! You've breathed so much life into this map for me.
It all makes so much more sense now what I'm looking at.

Quote:
Well, I hope that helps you picture the scene, and that I haven't misrepresented the place too badly.
Definitely! Thank you again Joshua, it's really useful to get my head around the scene of the crime. It's gone from some generic yard to a real living breathing place and you can't ask for better than that!
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  #14  
Old 11-14-2016, 11:53 PM
Charles Daniels Charles Daniels is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drstrange169 View Post
Hello Charles,

Welcome to the boards.
Cheers!
I've been meaning to come on her for absolute ages, so very thrilled and excited to be posting here at last!

Quote:
Fellow poster RichardH has created a 3D walk through of Dutfield's Yard.

I can't guarantee it is 100% perfect, but it's pretty darn close!

It will give you a good feel for what it was like.

http://autumnofterror.com
Amazing! Cheers for passing that along.

Quote:
Mrs Stride had no shortage of places to run to, there was a shop on the corner that was open and people either standing in doorways or at the very least, open doors.
My guess would be, if she was fleeing, she'd sort of instinctively flee to the loudest, brightest, noisiest place that was nearest by.

If there were people in standing in doorways of open shops, or potentially so, and if there was all this hustle and bustle in the men's working club.... what the hell was our killer thinking doing this deed there?

It's really puzzling.
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  #15  
Old 11-15-2016, 02:02 AM
StevenOwl StevenOwl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Daniels View Post
If there were people in standing in doorways of open shops, or potentially so, and if there was all this hustle and bustle in the men's working club.... what the hell was our killer thinking doing this deed there?

It's really puzzling.
The more I think about Stride's murder the more I believe that something along the lines of what Fisherman suggests here is more likely than her being a Ripper victim...

http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...fisherman.html
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  #16  
Old 11-15-2016, 04:45 AM
Charles Daniels Charles Daniels is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenOwl View Post
The more I think about Stride's murder the more I believe that something along the lines of what Fisherman suggests here is more likely than her being a Ripper victim...

http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...fisherman.html
Very well presented and reasoned piece.

I have a few issues with one or two things there, but will think about it and respond with some thoughts when I've collected them.
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  #17  
Old 11-15-2016, 05:27 AM
Charles Daniels Charles Daniels is offline
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I'm loathe to assign different killers to Stride and Eddowes not because of any lost mystique or sensationalism, but solely due to the fact that I'd need two murderers when the timings and locations involved strongly allow for one.

But Stride still seems an odd one out...

So... here are some wild ideas off the top of my head, let's see if anything fails the laugh test --

The killer has been fatally targetting Whitechapel area prostitutes for at least a month, maybe nearly 2 months. He may have been violently targeting them earlier than that. He escapes detection, and appears to have a good command of the area. My gut here says that he's probably known prostitutes in the area for quite some time -- before all this violence started.

So I'm assuming there are some women working in the Whitechapel area he's become acquainted with, or at least knows by sight. I doubt he's just some guy who's pure as the driven snow and hasn't made any mental notes of the appearance and locations of his potential prey.

Over the course of months he'll know some faces.

So what if he knows Stride?

Either he's paid for her services before OR at the very least he knows her to
be working as a prostitute on occasion.

He passes her near Dutfield's yard.

He tries to solicit her services, and she tells him she's not on the game.
He gets pissed off and an assault ensues.

Since she's not on the game, she's not leading him to some secluded spot and she won't let him lead her off.

So he kills her there.

But one of two things or both go wrong

Either he knows Stride better than the other victims and it throws him more than he suspects

Or

He started off feeling Stride was fair game as a known prostitute, but she
wasn't actively working, so it feels wrong

He then leaves the scene but feels compelled to complete the urges he first had when he encountered Stride.

He walks away from the scene and encounters Eddowes somewhere between the police station and Mitre Square. He solicits her services and this time things go more to plan.

After this weird night out, there is a pause and he re-thinks what he wants to do -- leading to Mary Jane Kelly. OR there is a bigger gap and he tries to start the cycle again with Alice McKenzie. Or some other factor comes into play which prevents further killings.
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  #18  
Old 11-15-2016, 05:42 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Here is a less cluttered map showing the yard. Also slightly later, 1894 I think - it seems the wooden print room had been removed by then. Even so, it doesn't look like there's any access to the end of the yard except into, through or possibly over commercial buildings.


http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom...layers=163&b=1
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Joshua Rogan : 11-15-2016 at 05:47 AM.
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  #19  
Old 11-15-2016, 06:33 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Daniels View Post
I'm loathe to assign different killers to Stride and Eddowes not because of any lost mystique or sensationalism, but solely due to the fact that I'd need two murderers when the timings and locations involved strongly allow for one.

But Stride still seems an odd one out...

So... here are some wild ideas off the top of my head, let's see if anything fails the laugh test --

The killer has been fatally targetting Whitechapel area prostitutes for at least a month, maybe nearly 2 months. He may have been violently targeting them earlier than that. He escapes detection, and appears to have a good command of the area. My gut here says that he's probably known prostitutes in the area for quite some time -- before all this violence started.

So I'm assuming there are some women working in the Whitechapel area he's become acquainted with, or at least knows by sight. I doubt he's just some guy who's pure as the driven snow and hasn't made any mental notes of the appearance and locations of his potential prey.

Over the course of months he'll know some faces.

So what if he knows Stride?

Either he's paid for her services before OR at the very least he knows her to
be working as a prostitute on occasion.

He passes her near Dutfield's yard.

He tries to solicit her services, and she tells him she's not on the game.
He gets pissed off and an assault ensues.

Since she's not on the game, she's not leading him to some secluded spot and she won't let him lead her off.

So he kills her there.

But one of two things or both go wrong

Either he knows Stride better than the other victims and it throws him more than he suspects

Or

He started off feeling Stride was fair game as a known prostitute, but she
wasn't actively working, so it feels wrong

He then leaves the scene but feels compelled to complete the urges he first had when he encountered Stride.

He walks away from the scene and encounters Eddowes somewhere between the police station and Mitre Square. He solicits her services and this time things go more to plan.

After this weird night out, there is a pause and he re-thinks what he wants to do -- leading to Mary Jane Kelly. OR there is a bigger gap and he tries to start the cycle again with Alice McKenzie. Or some other factor comes into play which prevents further killings.
not bad.
I think the night of the double event went more like this:

Stride has just broken up with Kidney. shes not out on the game looking for clients, shes out for a good time, maybe keeping an eye out for her next boyfriend/sugar daddy.

she meets someone out in a pub, they hit it off, hes buying her drinks. Unfortunately its the ripper.

Hes trying to use his typical ruse of posing as a client, trying to get her to a secluded spot but shes not going for it. Playing it coy, hard to get if you will-shes looking for a boyfriend, not a trick. after several attempts hes starting to lose his patience.(this is where Marshal, maybe Brown see them).

There out in front of the club and hes still trying. The copper (PC Smith)walks past them and he goes for it one more time and gets rejected. he loses his patience, and storms off down the road, thinking hes just wasted time and money with her, temper gets the best of him and he whirls around and returns to her and attacks her in the street. (Schwartz)

she breaks free and runs to the yard toward the voices of the club and he catches her in the yard and cuts her throat and flees.

On his way away from the scene he noticed he got blood on his hands and stops and cleans them (church street sighting).

He continues on his way, not satisfied, looking for another victim and finds Eddowes.(Lawende and company) After he finishes with Eddowes he scampers to his bolt hole, but hes still pissed about all the interuptions, especially it being from those hated Jews, who he now thinks might just be soon giving the police his description.

so he cleans up, drops of his trophies and knife cleans up, and heads back out to write the GSG, signing it with the apron piece. In his mind, This not only will throw off the police, but gets back at all those bothersome jews that kept interrupting him.

The clincher, as Ive said many times, on this night, is that all the witnesses listed above describe a man with a peak cap. It ties it all together.

At the very least, marshall, Schwartz, and lawende all saw the ripper with his victims.
The ripper killed Stride and Eddowes.
The ripper wrote the GSG, mainly because of Scwartz, the "heavy appearance" looking jew interrupted/saw him.
The ripper was wearing a peaked cap the night of the ripper.

Abberline thought the same. (see sig below).

Bam!
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quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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Last edited by Abby Normal : 11-15-2016 at 06:35 AM.
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  #20  
Old 11-15-2016, 07:44 AM
StevenOwl StevenOwl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
not bad.
I think the night of the double event went more like this:

Stride has just broken up with Kidney. shes not out on the game looking for clients, shes out for a good time, maybe keeping an eye out for her next boyfriend/sugar daddy.

she meets someone out in a pub, they hit it off, hes buying her drinks. Unfortunately its the ripper.

Hes trying to use his typical ruse of posing as a client, trying to get her to a secluded spot but shes not going for it. Playing it coy, hard to get if you will-shes looking for a boyfriend, not a trick. after several attempts hes starting to lose his patience.(this is where Marshal, maybe Brown see them).

There out in front of the club and hes still trying. The copper (PC Smith)walks past them and he goes for it one more time and gets rejected. he loses his patience, and storms off down the road, thinking hes just wasted time and money with her, temper gets the best of him and he whirls around and returns to her and attacks her in the street. (Schwartz)

she breaks free and runs to the yard toward the voices of the club and he catches her in the yard and cuts her throat and flees.

On his way away from the scene he noticed he got blood on his hands and stops and cleans them (church street sighting).

He continues on his way, not satisfied, looking for another victim and finds Eddowes.(Lawende and company) After he finishes with Eddowes he scampers to his bolt hole, but hes still pissed about all the interuptions, especially it being from those hated Jews, who he now thinks might just be soon giving the police his description.

so he cleans up, drops of his trophies and knife cleans up, and heads back out to write the GSG, signing it with the apron piece. In his mind, This not only will throw off the police, but gets back at all those bothersome jews that kept interrupting him.

The clincher, as Ive said many times, on this night, is that all the witnesses listed above describe a man with a peak cap. It ties it all together.

At the very least, marshall, Schwartz, and lawende all saw the ripper with his victims.
The ripper killed Stride and Eddowes.
The ripper wrote the GSG, mainly because of Scwartz, the "heavy appearance" looking jew interrupted/saw him.
The ripper was wearing a peaked cap the night of the ripper.

Abberline thought the same. (see sig below).

Bam!
I find it hard to believe that a killer so calm and collected on at least 4 other occasions as to almost be considered phantom-like, would be so reckless in his public pursuit and murder of Stride.
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