Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Motive, Method and Madness: What was occuring in 1888? - by DJA 4 hours ago.
Mary Jane Kelly: Mary Kellys Inquest - by Joshua Rogan 5 hours ago.
Witnesses: Our Charles Cross - by Busy Beaver 5 hours ago.
Witnesses: Our Charles Cross - by Herlock Sholmes 6 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: What was occuring in 1888? - by Joshua Rogan 6 hours ago.
Witnesses: Caroline Maxwell Alibi ? - by packers stem 6 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Witnesses: Our Charles Cross - (21 posts)
Witnesses: Caroline Maxwell Alibi ? - (9 posts)
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - (8 posts)
Motive, Method and Madness: What was occuring in 1888? - (6 posts)
Mary Jane Kelly: Mary Kellys Inquest - (3 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Favorite suspect/s? - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Elizabeth Stride

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #141  
Old 03-23-2015, 09:20 AM
Batman Batman is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,497
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Nice Batman-very possible.
Thanks. This is pretty much the standard orthodox view I got from Sugden after he revised modern interpretations of the investigation based on the Kozminski/Cohen hypothesis of Fido.

There are countless threads from the multiple killer hypothesis for the C5 that have a strong requirement to sideline Schwartz as a witness, yet as we can read from the police files, that a senior officer, Swanson, has obtained a police report that they have no reason to doubt him. Then we have the arrests, the statement of the second man (pipeman) no longer being suspected which all lead to the conclusion that they used Schwartz's information to gather in a haul of 'others'.

The papers are reporting that people who saw it thought it was just a man and wife having a quarrel. They call them others.
__________________
Bona fide canonical and then some.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #142  
Old 03-23-2015, 10:13 AM
John G John G is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,289
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
Thanks. This is pretty much the standard orthodox view I got from Sugden after he revised modern interpretations of the investigation based on the Kozminski/Cohen hypothesis of Fido.

There are countless threads from the multiple killer hypothesis for the C5 that have a strong requirement to sideline Schwartz as a witness, yet as we can read from the police files, that a senior officer, Swanson, has obtained a police report that they have no reason to doubt him. Then we have the arrests, the statement of the second man (pipeman) no longer being suspected which all lead to the conclusion that they used Schwartz's information to gather in a haul of 'others'.

The papers are reporting that people who saw it thought it was just a man and wife having a quarrel. They call them others.
Hello Batman,

I've little doubt that the police did believe Scwartz, at least initially. However, that doesn't mean they were correct to do so. As I posted on the other thread, I'm not totally convinced about the evidence of Lawende, Levy and Harris, and the police obviously had complete faith in those three.

I also still think it's possible that, even if Scwartz's account was factually accurate, then Stride may still have been killed by someone else a few minutes later, although I concede this is perhaps unlikely.

I also have serious doubts about the mysterious "others". As I also noted on the other thread if they existed why did they not appear at the inquest or on any police report? And why didn't any of them sell their story to the press; after all, they may well have witnessed Stride's killer and the newspapers seemed to be quite willing to accept evidence from witnesses like Mathew Packer, who offered far less significant information.

Last edited by John G : 03-23-2015 at 10:41 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #143  
Old 03-23-2015, 11:35 AM
Batman Batman is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,497
Default

Why avoid selling? Witnesses where being arrested on descriptions furnished.
__________________
Bona fide canonical and then some.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #144  
Old 03-23-2015, 01:19 PM
moonbegger moonbegger is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 991
Default

Greetings all ,

Yes , of course it is possible for the killer to get to Mitre Sq from Berners St , and run into kate along the way , but is it plausible ?
I think my main points of contention regarding one killer being responsible for the double event would have to be MO , location & desire . We know exactly what the Killer was looking to achieve in light of the total destruction that he created in Mitre Sq ! in a quiet desolate corner where he could hear and almost certainly act upon any interruptions .. Very unlike the Piccadilly Circus kerfuffle that was going on down Berner St . We have Mrs Mortimer , Morris Eagle , Joseph Lave , Lechfords sister , pipeman & Schwartz , not to mention the roomful of club members on the other side of the yard door . Any one of them could have disturbed him at any moment , especially as the noise from the club would have masked any imminent warning sounds he would be relying on to make good his escape .

Along with the unmistakable fact that our murderer most definitely had the ability to put each of his intended victims at total ease in his company , a million miles away from the street squabble the ensued with Liz and her killer .

Was JTR planning a later kill , but spurred into early action in light of the Berner street murder , and ensuing police activity that would no doubt follow soon after ? MMMmmmm ..

Cheers , Moonbegger

Last edited by moonbegger : 03-23-2015 at 01:24 PM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #145  
Old 03-23-2015, 04:19 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is online now
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 9,105
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
Different publisher/book.

My Stride chapter starts on 134.

p.136 starts on the 19th October 1888 in which Swanson wrote that 'the police apparently do not suspect the second man,'

Marginal note starts and ends on p.138 between brackets [ ].

So you think because the Marginal report speaks of an Inspector, that it is Swanson. So written by someone else?

I don't know. It doesn't say who did it. To me it doesn't really matter either way because before this Swanson says 'and the police report casts no doubt upon it.'

So we have a police report, that hasn't cast doubt on it, in Swanson's hands by 19th October. Schwartz appears to be corroborated.
Right, when all is said and done, somebody wrote it, but as the note is not dated we can only assume the 2nd man was cleared sometime after 19th October.
And yes, I do not doubt Schwartz either, but neither do I believe he necessarily saw the killer.
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #146  
Old 03-23-2015, 04:22 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is online now
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 9,105
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
nope your right-My bad-I mixed up the Lawende account.
Thanks for correcting Wicky!

But the first part of my post stands:

And do we really think a conservative jew, a foreigner, a newcomer, a stranger in a strange land is really going to lie to the police in a huge murder investigation-threatening himself and his family?
No problem these things happen.

You're right, unlikely he lied, though somebody added that knife to Pipeman.
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #147  
Old 03-24-2015, 10:41 AM
John G John G is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,289
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
Why avoid selling? Witnesses where being arrested on descriptions furnished.
Surely the risk was minimal. After all, the likes of Packer, Hutchinson, Schwartz, Levy, Harris, Lawende, etc, all gave accounts to the press without being arrested.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #148  
Old 03-24-2015, 11:03 AM
Batman Batman is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,497
Default Busy Berner St.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John G View Post
Surely the risk was minimal. After all, the likes of Packer, Hutchinson, Schwartz, Levy, Harris, Lawende, etc, all gave accounts to the press without being arrested.
The reason why I think there would have been more witnesses is because Berner Street was not empty. It had a haul of witnesses from different perspectives, not necessarily in relation to Schwartz's account. They are on record. Then we have the patrons of the club. People coming and going. Despite the press learning about the above witnesses, we also know the investigators actively told people not to talk to them about what they saw.

Since arrests where happening, that potential was there. I don't think it sounds initially like Pipeman came forward voluntarily. I suspect he was a much older gentleman sucking on a pipe and out of wind as he left the area in a hurry.

It was a double murder. So really its just Packer for Stride and the 3 other Jewish men leaving together near Mitre Square. That's not a whole pile of people.

However Berner Street... not such an empty spot.
__________________
Bona fide canonical and then some.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #149  
Old 03-24-2015, 01:41 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is online now
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 9,105
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
So really its just Packer for Stride and the 3 other Jewish men leaving together near Mitre Square. That's not a whole pile of people.
The only part of Packers statement I find interesting is the time & location of the man who was with Stride. Packer placed the couple right opposite the club at 12:30, where PC Smith placed the couple he saw.

Descriptions of the men are different, though this even happens in modern cases. PC Smith is not without fault, he could not decide whether this man wore a hard felt hat, or a deerstalker.

Packer, aged about 57, may have been short sighted, so the couple, when standing across the road, could have been a blur to him. He only saw the mans chest through the serving window, with it being so low.

Even though Packer destroyed his credibility by changing his story, this portion of his statement has a ring of truth about it, if only due to PC Smith seeing a similar couple at the same location, at the same time.
__________________
Regards, Jon S.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #150  
Old 03-27-2015, 03:52 PM
Batman Batman is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,497
Default Jewish places of interest

Having looked at Jewish places it seems that there might be grounds for noting that in the cases of Mitre Sq., Goulston St., and Berner St., these are Jewish places of interest.

Is it possible it all began in Goulston St.?

JtR has an altercation over goods there and/or tried to find a prostitute to kill, but can't. Writes the Graffiti. Heads/follows Jews to Berner St., looking to murder there to cast blame as in Chapman's aftermath. Doesn't succeed. Heads to Mitre Sq. Synagogue. Succeeds and then dumps the apron back at the graffiti bringing it back full circle.
__________________
Bona fide canonical and then some.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.