Kellys in the Scots Guards

[Debra A]

And now you've brought Jon's post to my attention again, Dave-I think that wondering if MJK gave a false name, or made up part of her background story is far from being dramatic or mysterious!
I hope none of the 'new identity' theorists post their thoughts or Jon might blow a gasket!

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

At least Joseph Barnett got one thing right.

The Times, 28th August 1888—



The Times, 7th September 1888—



Regards,

Simon

[Debra A]

Thanks, Simon.
I said in an earlier post that I wondered if Barnett might have just read that the Scots Guards were in Ireland, the same way we can now?
Here's Dublin '88 mentioned in the records of a 2nd Battalion Scots Guard too:

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

On Tuesday 3rd September 1889 the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards returned to London from Dublin.

Middlesex Messenger 6th September 1889—



Regards,

Simon

[lynn cates]

Dear old mum.

Hello Debs.

"I think that wondering if MJK gave a false name, or made up part of her background story is far from being dramatic or mysterious!'

Right. This is one case where one can question without being thought a looney--good evidence exists for it.

"I hope none of the 'new identity' theorists post their thoughts or Jon might blow a gasket!"

OK. Mum's the word. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

story

Hello Simon, Debs. That's a sound conjecture. (I almost celebrated that Barnett got one thing right.)

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Well said, Dave. Good post!

Why thanks Debs

Love Dad

oops!

Dave

[Wickerman]

Thanks for the explanation Jon, but when you say 'unit' do you mean the Battalion was split into smaller groups that were spread around?

No Debs I did not mean to suggest a battalion would split.
Why did I shift to saying "units"?
I'll explain.
The thought occured to me that Barnett might have confused Scots Guards with Scots Greys. But was there ever any battalions in what was basically a cavalry regiment?

Well actually yes, once there was, but before the 19th century.
The Scots Greys also rotated on what was known as Home Service, but in the 19th century I know of no battalions in this regiment. However, the Scots Greys did rotate through England, Scotland AND Ireland. But as of this writing I have found no reason to suggest they were in Dublin in the important period.
I just though it better to refer to military units rather than specify battalions.

No one is saying 'Henry' couldn't have joined up in Ireland, but if the battalion travel together he would have come back to England in 87 and not go back to Ireland until Sept 88?

Agreed, no-one is saying that.
If he joined up in England, say the early 1880's, he could have come via Wales.
If he joined up in Dublin prior to the 1800's then he would not be among those who arrived in Wales, hence no Welsh 'nickname', was my point.
We don't know when he enlisted, thats the problem.

I found it interesting that the nickname 'Jonto' is associated (and I gave examples) with the name john(s)ton. That's all. It kind of makes more sense in that case that Henry Kelly in the 2B Scots Guards could possibly have been someone named Johns(t)on, whether brother or lover.

Agreed, I thought it was an interesting 'turn of events', though the "lover posing as brother" is a relationship which cannot be researched so is unhelpful as a solution.
I'll just stay with legitimate brother if you don't mind.
However frustrating this line might become it is still researchable, and does not require us to accept something for which no proof exists.

Mary reportedly went to Wales when young Barnett said, he mentioned other members of the family but wasn't specific about who went where, I will agree with you there.

I'll sleep tonight...

Mary had a cousin in Wales and obviously her father too. It wouldn't be a stretch at all to assume that the police would also think the whole Kelly family along with Henry etc. also moved to Wales, as we assume it too and look for them there.

I think we need to apply what is least problematical.
Either, the whole Kelly clan plus aunts (uncles?) & cousins moved to Wales, or, the whole Kelly clan moved to Wales to be with their aunts/uncles/cousins, or, only the father, Mary & ? moved to Wales to stay with their relatives as a temporary measure?

Yet Barnett tells us that Mary never received communication from her family and wasn't in touch with them.

Are you referring to this?
"...A brother in the Second Battalion Scots Guards came to see her once, but beyond that she saw none of her relations, nor did she correspond with them."

I interpreted the above sentence along with that where Barnett says he had to read newspaper articles for Mary, taken together it is possible that Mary could not read or write.
Therefore "not corresponding" meant she did not write back. He did not say that they did not correspond with her, but that she did not correspond with them. His comment could be taken either way, so we cannot claim she had no letters from home.

Mccarthy had to do was wait until another letter arrived from Ireland and hand it in to the police...the mother and family would then be traced?

Do you think Abberline reported back to McCarthy that they could not trace her relatives? Probably not, eh?

Best Wishes, Jon S.

[Archaic]

Welsh Origin?

That Mary "had a cousin in Wales" suggests to me that one (or both) of her parents might have been born in Wales rather than in Ireland.

Best regards,
Archaic

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
The sad fact is, knowing now that Chris Scots photograph is not authentic, we have to erase from our minds all the possibilities that the family scene portrayed We are left with just hearsay, and dead leads, which we have always had.
It appears that Mary did have a brother in the army, but is non traceable , we have oral tradition that Mrs McCarthy parcelled up Kelly's belongings and forwarded them on to what was described a a ''reluctant receiver'', but our informant to that, has not shown a desire to elaborate.
The whole point being, that all of our ''new clues'' derive from people that claim to know, but are reluctant to say, a few dangling carrot's , that end up eaten, with no second helping's.
It certainly is a frustrating subject that we indulge in...
Regards Richard.

[Bridewell]

The Receiver

It appears that Mary did have a brother in the army, but is non traceable , we have oral tradition that Mrs McCarthy parcelled up Kelly's belongings and forwarded them on to what was described a a ''reluctant receiver'', but our informant to that, has not shown a desire to elaborate.
Regards Richard.

"Reluctant receiver", with no further information, could be almost anybody & certainly doesn't necessarily mean a family member. It could mean Barnett, or McCarthy could have passed any letters on to the police for them to be returned, to the family of MJK, when traced. If the police were having trouble locating the family, they might well have been reluctant to receive property they couldn't get rid of.

Regards, Bridewell

[richardnunweek]

Hello Bridewell.
When I termed ''Reluctant Receiver' I was describing Ms Kendall-lane's version of her grandfather, remembering his mother,sending belongings to Kelly's ''brother' who was in the army, who was concerned that his army prospects may be damaged by the events.
There is no doubt that this version of oral history reflects on a brother in the army, and nothing more.
Regards Richard.

[Debra A]

Are you referring to this?
"...A brother in the Second Battalion Scots Guards came to see her once, but beyond that she saw none of her relations, nor did she correspond with them."

I interpreted the above sentence along with that where Barnett says he had to read newspaper articles for Mary, taken together it is possible that Mary could not read or write.
Therefore "not corresponding" meant she did not write back. He did not say that they did not correspond with her, but that she did not correspond with them. His comment could be taken either way, so we cannot claim she had no letters from home.

For me, there's a few problems with your scenario though, Jon.
Firstly, if MJK couldn't read then who was reading these family letters from her mother to her? I would assume Barnett? Yet, from his lack of knowledge of the family,it seems not.

Secondly, Mary as a single person, and Mary and Joe as a couple, moved around quite a lot but as far as we know they only ever lived in one property of McCarthy's; that's 13 room, Miller's Court? So how did her mother in Ireland know where to reach her if Mary didn't correspond? Barnett and Mary had been together quite a while before they moved into Miller's Court together.

Thirdly, as has been discussed many many times. It would be odd indeed for a mother to be able to read and write and not have taught that skill to her own children? Yet we know from countless contemporary sources that the 'head of the household' reading the papers to his 'family' was the norm. Why can't that be the situation with Mary and Barnett too?

Do you think Abberline reported back to McCarthy that they could not trace her relatives? Probably not, eh?

John McCarthy was an intelligent business man who could read, it was his property Mary was brutally butchered in, he volunteered to contribute towards the funeral expenses for Mary. It was all over the papers that no family had been traced or come forward, even if the police didn't ask him all about what he knew of Mary's family and if he knew anything that could help to trace them(which I cannot believe they didn't, sorry ) he would have known just from gossip and the papers that no family had been traced. The minute another letter from Ireland appeared I imagine Mccarthy would have sent Bowyer bombing off to the police station with it! Yes.

[lynn cates]

basis in reality

Hello Richard.

"The whole point being, that all of our ''new clues'' derive from people that claim to know"

Right. "They only THOUGHT they knew."

Now, perhaps the central question about Barnett's (MJK's?) story is whether there is ANY basis in reality for it?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

scholarly

Hello Debs.

"if MJK couldn't read then who was reading these family letters from her mother to her?"

Indeed. And why did I find a snippet in a newspaper calling her "scholarly"?

Cheers.
LC