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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Ann Nichols

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  #91  
Old 07-13-2017, 02:27 PM
Elamarna Elamarna is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Steve,

I could easily say that the cuts you speak about were "a failure". But I donīt like thinking that way so I do not say it.

I prefer data.

Cheers, Pierre
While i agree. The orginal question was for suggestions why?
Not sure what reliable data we are likely to have on if two or more cuts are made because of failure of the first, confessions of killers perhaps?
I seriously doubt there is any meaniful data from the 19th century on such.
Paul's data may give a more modern perspective.

I think it really is just speculation on possible reasons. None of which I fear can be supported by data.

Steve
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  #92  
Old 07-13-2017, 02:28 PM
kjab3112 kjab3112 is offline
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Pierre

Here's a link to a South African series of all neck injuries, demonstrating how rare that degree of injury is

https://link.springer.com/article/10...268-008-9766-7

PS there is an obvious survivor bias but this is probably as good as it gets in terms of numbers, and strangely no one is meta-analysing homicidal neck wounds

Last edited by kjab3112 : 07-13-2017 at 02:30 PM.
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  #93  
Old 07-13-2017, 04:36 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Hi Wickerman,

I donīt know what to make of this (excerpt from the article in your reference):


"The evidence given by Dr. Phillips on 18 Sept. at the Hanbury-street inquest is incontrovertible proof that Annie Chapman was partially strangled before her throat was cut. When Dr. Phillips was called to see the body he found that


THE TONGUE PROTRUDED
between the front teeth, but not beyond the lips. The face was swollen, the finger-nails and lips were turgid, and in the brain, on the head being opened, he found the membranes opaque and the veins and tissues loaded with black blood. All these appearances are the ordinary signs of suffocation."

Is this something I can belive in?

Pierre
I would expect so, there is no reason to not believe it.
Some of what is written in that paragraph is a direct quote from inquest testimony published on Sept. 14th.
The mention of "18 Sept" in that paragraph is a misprint for 13th Sept.
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  #94  
Old 07-13-2017, 04:57 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
While i agree. The orginal question was for suggestions why?
Not sure what reliable data we are likely to have on if two or more cuts are made because of failure of the first, confessions of killers perhaps?
I seriously doubt there is any meaniful data from the 19th century on such.
Paul's data may give a more modern perspective.

I think it really is just speculation on possible reasons. None of which I fear can be supported by data.

Steve
Hi Steve,

Again, regarding Alice McKenzie. I did find another detail of the inquest reported by the London Evening News. Dr. Phillips states the first incision seems to have been interrupted by the prominence of the lower jaw.
So Phillips felt it was in fact the first cut that was interrupted. I wasn't sure about that in my earlier post.

This to me could be a possible 'botched' attempt by the killer and he felt he needed another cut to complete his work. The killer may have had enough with the first incision to already kill her, but he was unsure and gave it another go.
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  #95  
Old 07-13-2017, 04:58 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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In Chapman's case the the two cuts are in effect one continuous cut which overlapped each other. Wickerman submitted a drawing sometime back to demonstrate this. Doctor Philips observed that an attempt had been made to separate the vertebrae in the neck, raising the possibility that an attempt had been made to decapitate Chapman. I am of the opinion that the killer attempted the same procedure in the Nichols murder.
Perhaps this?

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  #96  
Old 07-13-2017, 05:14 PM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
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is there any implication observer that, by "overlapped", dr phillips means that the ripper cut in the same place twice, leaving those two nick marks on the vertebra illustrated by wickerman? like cutting a head of lettuce in half twice
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  #97  
Old 07-14-2017, 01:56 AM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Originally Posted by kjab3112 View Post
This though is a massive sample of medicolegal autopsies, yet throat cut homicide is incredibly rare. There are other series which compare suicidal (rare), accidental (very rare) and homicidal, neck sharp wounds.

The deeper wounds are near inevitably homicidal, but still a mere fraction of the total. Unfortunately I can only access the abstracts and a summary on forensicmed.

One needs to remember the sternocleidomastoid muscles are a couple of cm thick and although the larynx is fairly superficial, the carotid artery and jugular vein are deep to the muscle in a normal neck position

Paul
Hi Paul,

Do you think this rare type of wound, i.e. what you call deeper wounds, can be caused by normal individuals with normal strenght - this is of course testable - or do you think it demands stronger individuals?

Pierre
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  #98  
Old 07-14-2017, 03:01 AM
kjab3112 kjab3112 is offline
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I see no reason a normal strength person couldn't cut through muscle and cartilage with a sharp enough knife

Paul
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  #99  
Old 07-14-2017, 03:13 AM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Originally Posted by kjab3112 View Post
I see no reason a normal strength person couldn't cut through muscle and cartilage with a sharp enough knife

Paul
I see. Thanks Paul.

Pierre
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  #100  
Old 07-14-2017, 05:43 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Hi Pierre

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
In murders where there were throat cuts: how common were such cuts?
Specifically, which sort of throat cuts do you refer to ?
Double throat cuts ?

Quote:
Were all / some of these cuts "tentative"?
Quote:
What does a suggestion about a cut being "tentative" say about the Whitechapel killer - if anything at all?
Tentative was just an adjective I picked in reference to Dr Brown`s superficial cut reference. Also, cos I wasn`t sure Dr Brown was referring to a second cut.
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