JonBenet Ramsey Murder case

[Shelley]

It has been very nice talking and discussing this case with you tji, indeed you have motivated me to add to this case some useful information, so wanted to thankyou in engaging in conversation, it has been very interesting. You take care and hope to see you contribute more in info and links regarding this case, if you so choose to do so.

[tji]

I'm sorry, i don't understand you, the dna from semen found in the panties of JonBenet from the crime scene does not belong to the Ramsey family, so therefore it does not prove the Ramsey's involvement of her actual killing, so i have no idea what you mean by " ..... they were indicted more on the evidence pointing toward them couldn't be disproven. " that bit tji doesn't fit as Guilty and of any sort of proof in JonBenet's killing.

The DNA is questionable Shelley, not everyone believes it's results should have been used to exonerate the Ramsey's. We don't know when the DNA was placed there, it could have been contaminated. Also it wasn't semen that was found in the underwear, it was touch DNA, probably skin cells. Touch DNA can come from a number of places and even Dr Lee (renowned forensic expert) believed it is likely to be 'a whole lot of nothing' as he had opened new underwear and found male DNA on it.


Obviously at the Christmas period when Mr & Mrs Ramsey along with their 2 children Jonbenet & Burke went to bed that night on December 25th had not invited someone that was not an immediate family member to stay with them that night, they may argue that is an intruder, however within reasonable responsibility of the law, and i have no idea regarding american law, because of the broken window which is an invitation for some uninvited guest without verbal permission or by a request of the Ramsey family, by note, card , letter or word of mouth that the legality of that situation may very well not class it as an intruder, because of the broken window. However, i will say this, if John Ramsey was too busy to have secured properly the window himself and asked for assistance either by kindness or by a paid maintenance repair service and was told that that window would be repaired and he believed that window area was indeed secure because someone else told him that was the case, maybe there could be some sort of a flimsy argument from John Ramsey, whether that would be recognized by a grand jury, perhaps that would be a different argument entirely. In the UK, ignorance of the law is no defense ( against it )

I am not sure any court of law would indict a parent for a broken window? My take on the indictment is that the Jury believed the Ramseys' were responsible for Jon benet's death, or had knowledge of it that they withheld.

[Shelley]

Ramsey's appeared separated or divorced ~ Advocacy help

Police Officer Rick French stated that there was something not right about the Ramsey family, an Advocacy that had come in to help the Ramsey Family had stated that they picked up that John & Patsy Ramsey appeared to be Separated or Divorced.

Please bear with me for one moment, it is not uncommon for married people to have affairs. Sex is actually a comfort to many people and the reactions of her personality was very emotional A Drama Queen she was described by Officer Steve Thomas , also Police Officer Steve Thomas said that when he questioned her across the table, she leaned in so close that they were almost in kissing distance, so with Steve Thomas's statement, it is quite possible that John Ramsey could have been having an affair with someone himself, rather than Patsy, that Patsy appeared desperate for comfort herself. John Ramsey upon finding the body of JonBenet cried out " This is an inside job as no one knows about the wine cellar " , he and maybe also patsy knew something, just as the Grand Jury in their indictment seem to be suggesting since at least 2013, if not before.

There is evidence from reports of JonBenet's body that she had been sexual abused repeatedly over some period of time, sexual abuse that neither of the parents were aware of, where Patsy Ramsey was shocked to find out, so i doubt that this would be a female. Maybe Patsy's Drama Queen emotional state was due to a secret lover perhaps?. Someone with a need for power over others can be emotionally manipulative and demanding. It's also not uncommon for a predator to prey upon a mother with a child, a mother who is having emotional problems, such as a marriage not working out. The Ransom note appeared to be directed at John, showing possessiveness and jealousy and money, usually males need to focus and provide for the money. Patsy was being incriminatedwith the crime scene, Patsy was being usedand that appears to be just that considering that JonBenet had been sexually abused repeatedly. Maybe the wine cellar was known because of a little romance maybe?, maybe that's why John Ramsey broke the windowsomething he knew but was only suspicious about maybe? Emotions getting the better of him also and not just Patsy. A Possibility perhaps? Wine & Romance , used abused and sexual relationsanger & jealousies. With psychopaths, you get your ordinary criminal that ends up in jail amongst gangs and the poorer classes, others are a bit of a Fat cat and are managers or directors in the business sector, a need for Power moving in Powerful Jobs and careers of power over others on different levels, much like the rung of a ladder in a power hierarchy. Certain personalities attract a Psychopath, with Patsy's emotional problems, i wonder what she attracted into her life and her daughter's life? . Personally i think that it's just possible that the killer of JonBenet was a predator of both her and Patsy a Real Handy man and not just around the house and business, but also sexually and emotionally manipulative of both Patsy & JonBenet. The last target for this predator was a need for some Power over John Ramsey. Patsy appears to be a devoute Christian, doesn't seem to go down well with Real Psychopathsbecause it kind of steals their limelightPsychopaths go for children as well as adults sexuallythey are indeed not too fussy on that score. Perhaps the killer may have had a secret set of keys to the house, that no one knew about except for Patsy

Secret Set of House Keys

Secret Love Affair or was it Two Arranged Love Affairs?

1. For John Ramsey and another for Patsy RamseyAfter all? Hmm?

2. All the people coming and going into that Ramsey House, a rather open house, with several sets of House keys, an open lifestyle.

3. Could such an open lifestyle have led to a breakdown in the Ramsey Marriage?

4. Or was it just about Moneyarrangements and Housing arrangements difficulty until a Real Divorce could be arranged?.

5. The death of JonBenet did bring the couple together, they supported one another through the tribulations, at least to the tv cameras and the media, rather odd behavior for a jealous spouse i would think. To all appearances it would be presumed that neither of them were having a love affair anyway.

However, is that the truth?

Sometimes the killer comes back to the scene of the crime, but Patsy & John don't seem to fit that bill, and was that indeed the case anyway, in the JonBenet case?

[Shelley]

The DNA is questionable Shelley, not everyone believes it's results should have been used to exonerate the Ramsey's. We don't know when the DNA was placed there, it could have been contaminated. Also it wasn't semen that was found in the underwear, it was touch DNA, probably skin cells. Touch DNA can come from a number of places and even Dr Lee (renowned forensic expert) believed it is likely to be 'a whole lot of nothing' as he had opened new underwear and found male DNA on it.


Obviously at the Christmas period when Mr & Mrs Ramsey along with their 2 children Jonbenet & Burke went to bed that night on December 25th had not invited someone that was not an immediate family member to stay with them that night, they may argue that is an intruder, however within reasonable responsibility of the law, and i have no idea regarding american law, because of the broken window which is an invitation for some uninvited guest without verbal permission or by a request of the Ramsey family, by note, card , letter or word of mouth that the legality of that situation may very well not class it as an intruder, because of the broken window. However, i will say this, if John Ramsey was too busy to have secured properly the window himself and asked for assistance either by kindness or by a paid maintenance repair service and was told that that window would be repaired and he believed that window area was indeed secure because someone else told him that was the case, maybe there could be some sort of a flimsy argument from John Ramsey, whether that would be recognized by a grand jury, perhaps that would be a different argument entirely. In the UK, ignorance of the law is no defense ( against it )

I am not sure any court of law would indict a parent for a broken window? My take on the indictment is that the Jury believed the Ramseys' were responsible for Jon benet's death, or had knowledge of it that they withheld.

I'll Just say this, the boulder Colorado Police don't see that the Ramsey's are guilty of the actual killing as in a killer of JonBenet that caused her physical death. Maybe read some more of valuable source material regarding the JonBenet case? Your disgreement's regarding the dna found on the girl's panties is outdated. Up to date sources that are accepted by those in authority. Of course you may disagree with whatever you like, that's entirely your choice and i'm not against it, however i don't chose to personally agree with you. I hope you understand tji. Just to let you know, you're kind of wasting your efforts in order to persuade me otherwise with out dated info that you are using in your quotes and replies to me. As for the broken window explanation that you have, i don't believe i conveyed that kind of message in any of my posts, so i obviously don't understand what you are trying to say. Also i am so sorry that you seem to take out of context what i convey, perhaps it has come to a point of where i don't understand you and quite obviously you do not understand me, so it's rather a little pointless. If you don't mind, i changed my mind and would rather not respond to any more of your posts from now on. No hard feelings tji, it's just that the dialogue is getting a bit lost in translation. You take care now.

[Shelley]

Detective Lou Smit

Lou Smit

" If you see something wrong, but don't say anything about it, you are condoning it. "

Wise words from Lou Smit, a retired American Police Detective that was called in to help with the Jonbenet Ramsey case, even though he had retired from the force. What a kind helpful guy.

Personally i find quite a few things that Lou Smit says, not only true, but of great value to everyone. Lou Smit died on August 11 th 2010.

RIP Lou Smit.

[Shelley]

Some Justice for Burke Ramsey

Poor Burke Ramsey, personally i see that a 9 yr old innocent child that nearly took some blame for some psychopath predator that preyed on his mother and his sister JonBenet, that eventually took the life of his sister. Just because his voice was heard for a few seconds on a recorded 9 11 police call. I am one person that would very much like to see some justice in this tragedy, there is his father John Ramsey, maybe the Justice system could consider that for Burke Ramsey because there doesn't seem to be much else in the way for justice, no one can compensate for the damage caused to his now deceased mother Patsy Ramsey, no one can bring his sister JonBenet back from the dead like Lazarus in the bible, that patsy cried out for on the day of the discovery of JonBenet's Rigor Mortis stricken body, just a little tiny body of a beautiful child that should have had all her life ahead of her, with much to look forward in life. A 6 yr old life cut short. Haven't the Ramsey's suffered enough, does it take a Justice system to make John Ramsey along with Burke Ramsey suffer more, just because of the pitfalls of sex and marriage and the kind of people that can use, abuse and manipulate you in life, just because they happen to be a very dangerous person, that unwittingly the Ramsey's could not forsee ~ For goodness sakes they didn't have any kind of ESP to forsee this tragedy. A president of the United states once said "Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country", but what is a country anyway if you do not have the people anyway? Not much if you keep on beating down your own people now is it? What kind of a country is it then? Just a beaten down country that's all it will be. If the USA is so religious, and it is a philosophy for the most part, i seem to recall the words " Love one another as i have loved you ", a sound philosophy that part. Sadly, it's just about parts anyway.

Burke Ramsey who was innocent of his sister's actual horrific killing, just because for a few seconds his voice was found on a 9 11 recorded call to the police, a police call. Could John Ramsey have played a family video recording during Patsy's 9 11 phone call and that's where Burke's voice had been heard on the recorded police 9 11 call? Or where the parents afraid that a policeman may bully or even tazer their 9 yr old son if things just went not quite right, it was a risk, so just lied a bit to help him. So it seems to me that they were protective parents after all. John Ramsey has lost two daughters now, it's hard to outlive your own children, the hardest one i expect is the circumstances of the death of JonBenet. How would you feel if that was your daughter?

So i do believe there are many women who die at the hands of a violent husband or boyfriend, it happens. So should they be found guilty of someone elses violence? Personally i think it is an Injustice.

[Shelley]

Burke Ramsey ?

On another note regarding Burke Ramsey the brother of Jonbenet Ramsey, and what happened the day of his sister's rigor mortis body was found, yet again what's so guilty about a 9 yr old boy being out of bed, waking up and walking about his own home?

Or with Patsy Ramsey's emotional state and the appearance of distance between John Ramsey & his Wife Patsy, like a separation or a divorce as described by the Advocacy called in to help, whatever problems the Ramsey's had, maybe they just didn't notice Burke come downstairs after all and Burke went back up to bed, Patsy was rather emotional and a Drama Queen, perhaps Burke didn't want to be around her. Then the few seconds of Burke's voice being heard on the 9 11 recorded call to Boulder Police, may have been a lie to the police, but not acknowledged by Burke's parents at the time. Both parents immersed in the ransom note and JonBenet. A lie that was just not aware of being a lie from John & Patsy after all.

[Shelley]

Ransom Note

Interestingly enough, regarding the Ransom Note, that it starts off with Mr Ramsey ( John Ramsey ) and it ends in John ( John Ramsey ).

[Shelley]

DNA Evidence Cleared Ramsey Family of JonBenet's Killing

Doesn't look like it was a secret set of keys to the house of how the Intruder got in, investigation say the intruder got in by the window, debris and a grate was moved investigators found. As far as i am concerned some of the stuff i have read from Steve Thomas who resigned from the police force, wanting to blame the Ramsey family including Implicating Burke, then going on what kind of a town it was , reducing it to a Mickey Mouse Town, i think he was a bit of a Mickey Mouse Policeman, the guy was a bit silly to say the least and some of what he said made no sense at all of what he said that i can recall by memory.

Here, JonBenet Investigation pt 4 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QofH2gBtC6A

Looks to me that the killer got in through the basement window, and covered JonBenet Ramsey with her blanket to hide the fact that it was a body, to then exit it through the same window that he gained entry into the house.

Apparently the Boulder Police have a suspect that by real identity is hidden and they named him as * Bob * , Bob used to enter into people's houses at night time, as an intruder and he used to watch houses and obviously people coming and going out of their homes, when they left he gained entry into their homes. Apparently a stungun was used over the duct tape, as the *Heat * melted the plastic tape and it stuck to JonBenet's face. So no messy items or paintbrush handles making the injuries on her body. It was a stungun. Bob's cattle prod that he owned apparently was burned, don't know if that has been tested for some sort of a match. I would say there are different models of stunguns, someone could make a homemade makeshift one, or indeed something like a cattle prod.

[Shelley]

EXtra Marital Affairs ~ John Ramsey

Apparentley John Ramsey had an extra-marital affair which led to the divorce from his first wife, however both John & Patsy told the Police that they were not having an affair with anyone, prior to the death of JonBenet , either of them.

Sounds like an intruder, rather than any extra marital affairs. The Police did check for extra marital affairs.

[Shelley]

Steve Thomas

Ah, that's probably why Steve Thomas didn't make that much sense with some things that i recall. Apparently Boulder, Colorado Denver Police were not familiar with homicide cases, they didn't have any experience in homicide , Here: JonBenet Investigation Pt 2 video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJnTEbCdQTQ

When the police threatened to with hold JonBenet's body for proper burial, that had some meaning in the ransom note, because the note says that as well regarding the Ransom Note's instructions for a money delivery.

Images for JonBenet Ramsey Ransom Note : https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=e...90.RR6rY0R91Pc

[Shelley]

I think it's possible that the intruder, the killer may have gained entry into the house when the Ramsey's left earlier to celebrate Christmas with neighbours / friends, and he went through the house, it's possible that he was already in the house when the Ramsey's arrived home. Maybe the intruder had watched Jonbenet Ramsey before the Christmas time and maybe he had been in contact with her already, who knows? There was something about JonBenet's school friend saying that Jonbenet would get a special visit or secret visit from Santa. I have no idea on whether that was just kids upset about JonBenet, or something that may have some importance, i don't know, Just came across it.

[tji]

I'll Just say this, the boulder Colorado Police don't see that the Ramsey's are guilty of the actual killing as in a killer of JonBenet that caused her physical death. Maybe read some more of valuable source material regarding the JonBenet case?

Hhmmmm guess I should learn how to research a little more eh?

Also from what I understand the a lot of people believe the Ramsey's were culpable and disagreed with the actions of Mary Lacy in clearing them.

Your disgreement's regarding the dna found on the girl's panties is outdated. Up to date sources that are accepted by those in authority. Of course you may disagree with whatever you like, that's entirely your choice and i'm not against it, however i don't chose to personally agree with you.

No it isn't outdated, people still believe it is an acceptable explanation. Just because someone has put forward another option you believe, doesn't make the original wrong.
Just because DNA was found it doesn't make it a closed case. They found a few markers of male DNA (not even enough to secure a conviction if they get a match) with no concrete evidence to prove it was placed there at the time of her death. Can we say for certain there was DNA found, yes. Can we say for certain it is the killer's, no.

I would just like to note - again -that no semen was ever found.

I hope you understand tji.

Well if you talk slow enough I am sure I can keep up.

Just to let you know, you're kind of wasting your efforts in order to persuade me otherwise with out dated info that you are using in your quotes and replies to me.

I was never trying to persuade you either way, just pointing out the conclusion you come to with the facts you have isn't necessarily correct. If you want to believe them innocent because that is what you believe I have no problem with that but when you spout they are innocent because it was an intruder from the DNA I feel the need to point out the problem with that.

As for the broken window explanation that you have, i don't believe i conveyed that kind of message in any of my posts so i obviously don't understand what you are trying to say. Also i am so sorry that you seem to take out of context what i convey, perhaps it has come to a point of where i don't understand you and quite obviously you do not understand me, so it's rather a little pointless.

I was answering your query as to whether the Ramsey's could be indicted because of window being broken.
My explanation was that the only reason the window would be used as a indictment charge would be if the broken window was proven to be a cause in the death of Jonbenet. It could be argued that if an intruder entered through the window after John knew it was unsecured and this in turn could be proven to have aided in the murder of Jonbenet then maybe it could then have been used as an argument to indict them. However this can't be the case unless it was proven an intruder was the killer.....which can't be proven.

If you don't mind, i changed my mind and would rather not respond to any more of your posts from now on. No hard feelings tji, it's just that the dialogue is getting a bit lost in translation. You take care now.

Fair enough.

Just to conclude -

A possible scenario for an intruder - if you don't believe the Ramsey's were part of it -

A non member of the Ramsey family has a jealous grudge against the Ramsey's and their wealth, so they decide to get some revenge.

They find their way through the gardens to the one broken window (hidden from view).
* They enter through the window,
* They walk through the train room door to the corridor with the stairs.
* They climb the stairs to the first floor
* They enter the kitchen through a door
* They pick up a flashlight form a drawer in the kitchen.
* They find a cup with pens in and take one from the far side of the kitchen.
* They move out from the kitchen into passage with mud room to the left and stairs straight ahead.
* They pick up a pad and compose a 3 page ransom note (not forgetting the draft that was apparently found also.)
* They climb the stairs to the second floor.
* They have an entire floor to search but they manage to find JonBenet's bedroom.
* They take her out of her bed.
* They carry her downstairs.
* They carry her through the kitchen.
* They carry her down into the basement.
* They carry her through passage into the train room.

Somewhere along here things go wrong. We now have a murdered and sexually abused JonBenet in the wine cellar. For this the intruder would have had to carry her though multiple rooms (train room, boiler room and wine cellar) for a murder weapon and going back through these to get a paint brush from Patsy's art box near the broken window. Go back and sexually assault her returning the way they came and leave through the window, without disturbing the cobwebs and dirt.

They managed all this with the aid of limited light, no evidence, no forensics, no noise.

Now you have to ask yourself, why sexually assault/kill her if you want ransom money?
Or if the plan was to kill her then why leave the ransom note?
Or if the plan was to kidnap her and this went wrong and she died, why stage a sexual assault. I don't think anyone who had just accidentally killed a child would be of the mind to do this, I would think they would just want to escape.

OR

You could have a Ramsey resident, who knows the house, knows the child and who she trusts, who forensically is all over the house kill her and try to confuse Police with a ransom note, using all items needed from their house, where they know how to locate them?

[Shelley]

Injuries, fibres & tape ~ JonBenet

JonBenet had stungun marks on her face and body, cord wrapped around a paintbrush handle, the paintbrush handle used as a garrote , paintbrush taken from Patsy's artist tidy box, Lou Smit believed along with another investigator that she was strangled slowly with the garrote and a possibility this was repeatedly, in order for the offender to become sexually excited until the offender decided to murder her. When he yanked the garrote to eventually strangle her to death. JonBenet had bright red marks on her body, around the neck. Half moon shaped marks above the cord Lou Smit believes this was caused by JonBenet's fingernails as she struggled to obtain some relief from the pressure from the garrote. JonBenet had deep indention into her neck after the garrote was removed. The stungun marks on her face the lower mark appears smaller with the one below what appears to be her right ear, circular in shape. A stungun mark with white substance adhered to JonBenet's right cheek, this indicates that she was stungunned over the duct tape on her mouth, the tape had melted on her face. The prong for the smaller mark was made where duct tape covered Jonbenet's cheek & mouth. She had an 8 1/2 inch skull fracture caused by one strong blow to her head with a blunt object. Injuries to the head tend to create large amounts of blood, however JonBenet only had two tablespoons of blood around her brain, with no external blood at the crime scene, this indicated that she was near death when she was hit. According to Lou Smit, the expert involved in the case compared the amount of force to create this fracture as being similar to falling from a three storey building. Apparentley the Ramsey's said the flashlight ( a MagLite flashlight ) found inside their home, as well as baseball bat found in their yard ( a baseball bat found outside the Butler door on the northside of the Ramsey home ) did not belong to them The bat had fiber consistent with the carpet inside the Ramsey's basement. Was it a blunt object that was used to hit JonBenet on the head with? Authorities wonder if that was another way of where the offender may have exited the home, by the Butler door.

John Ramsey found JonBenet's body with Duct tape over her mouth, this possibly was used to keep her quiet because she did put up a struggle, Jonbenet did not know whether or not if she was still alive ( probably of where John Ramsey and his friend, one or the other thought of calling for an ambulance ), so John Ramsey removed the duct tape and discarded it on the blanket, the friend that accompanied John to the basement of where the police had allowed John & his friend to search the house, John's friend had picked up the duct tape and discarded it a second time. Analysis of the duct tape located red fibers consistent with the red & black sweater, a sweater worn by Patsy Ramsey. According to Lou Smit, no black fibers from Patsy's sweater were located on the duct tape, other fibers, specifically brown fibers, were located on the duct tape, the source of the brown fibers were never identified. Could the brown fibers possibly be from gloves worn by the offender? Patsy Ramsey had previously sat on JonBenet's blanket in JonBenet's bedroom while wearing her red & black sweater. The red fibers, which were already on the blanket from Jonbenet's bedroom, probably transferred from the blanket to the duct tape when the duct tape was discarded on the blanket in the storage room. As Basically stated, it's an explanation in all reason of why fibers from Patsy's red & black sweater were on the blanket & duct tape.

A Guest room adjacent to JonBenet's bedroom was rarely used. A climbing rope in a brown paper sack was found in this bedroom. The Ramsey family said the rope did not belong to them. The drawers in the bathroom were open, this reveals that someone looked inside them. Was the offender already in the house when the Ramsey family went to sleep? It's a possibility.

Additional : I am thinking that possibly as it has been said with a prepared ransom note, which looks like it was altered, as pages from Patsy's notepad was missing and some sort of a copycat wording and similar handwriting style from Patsy Ramsey's writing, in particular, was in the produced Ransom Note given to police. Patsy did say that she did not know what John Ramsey earned in his pay, nor that she knew the amount of money he received in his bonus to the tune of $118,000.00. However, a few items / objects were used specifically from Pasty's belongings in the house, this is not uncommon for criminals to lean towards blaming mothers rather than fathers. This doesn't mean to say however, that women cannot be blamed ( Alieen Wuornos for instance, especially in the category of serial killings ). However Patsy Ramsey just doesn't fit that type of a killing, nor does she fit the profile as been stated by authorities of a parent that would kill her children, or kill them in the way Jonbenet was killed. Patsy Ramsey didn't have that type of a personality.

Also with the kind of injuries and killing of JonBebet, it's more likely that the blanket was used to cover her body to hide the fact that it was a body. Maybe the killer heard something, some noise, so decided to just leave the house and not take JonBenet out of the house with him.

Back to the stungun marks, with one being smaller than another, i wonder if anyone may think it possible that a a homemade fashioned type of stungun was used?

The above is only a mention of some of the recorded injuries on JonBenet's face & body.

[Shelley]

Hhmmmm guess I should learn how to research a little more eh?

I just said maybe tji, it's entirely up to you what you may choose to do. Personally i'm just going in a different direction, but that's just me, my choices. Maybe we may talk sometime, say in an area such as pubtalk on the boards, who knows yet? Anyway have a interesting time on the boards tji and all the best tji. Besides i do not have to try and understand you and some of the replies you may write, just my personal choices. Ok. Finally my last reply to you tji, ok.

" The DNA in the sperm found in the little one’s underwear did not match any members of her family. " Referring to JonBenet as the little one.

The above source from this link here : http://carolynquinn.wordpress.com/20...sey-cold-case/

This is what i understood to be new updated information ~ i hope this was a valuable and valid piece of information.