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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Lechmere/Cross, Charles

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  #1  
Old 12-07-2016, 11:38 AM
Patrick S Patrick S is offline
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Default Lechmere in Mitre Square

It’s time, I think, to move Lechmere in a different direction. Let’s take the discussion out of Buck’s Row……and into, shall we say, Mitre Square.

Catherine Eddowes left the Bishopsgate police station at approximately 1:00am on Sunday, September 30, 1888. Bishopsgate station was about a ten minute walk from Mitre Square, where PC Watkins discovered her body at approximately 1:45am.

Eddowes was murdered on Sunday. Thus, we can likely assume that Lechmere – if he killed Eddowes – did so outside time and geographic patterns associated with the route he took – likely Monday through Saturday - from his home in Doveton Street to his place of employment at Pickford’s in Broad Street. Let’s concede for the sake of discussion that the murders of Tabram (perhaps seen dead at approximately 3:00am, body discovered at 4:45am, Tuesday, August 7), Nichols (found dead at approximately 3:45am, Friday, August 31), and Chapman (found dead around 6:00am, Saturday, September 8) fit this pattern in that they occurred on days that Lechmere was likely working at Pickford’s, along or near his route to Pickford’s with the victim’s bodies found later in the morning than was Eddowes (approximately 1:45am rather than after 3:45am).

Christer has suggested that the deviation from the patterns can be attributed to Lechmere having been in that area, on a day off of work (Saturday night – Sunday morning) visiting his mother. My questions for Christer would be these:

Is there evidence that Lechmere regularly visited his mother?

At the time of Eddowes’ murder Lechmere was father to 8 children aged between two and fifteen. How would Lechmere have accounted for his absence from wife and family without arousing his wife Elizabeth’s suspicion?

How far from Mitre Square did Lechmere’s mother live?


At around 1:35am – about ten minutes before she was found dead - Joseph Lawende saw a man with Eddowes at the corner of Duke Street and Church Passage (which led to Mitre Square). He described him as “30 years old, 5 foot 7 inches tall, fair complexion and mustache with a medium build. He is wearing a pepper and salt colored jacket which fits loosely, a grey cloth cap with a peak of the same color. He has a reddish handkerchief knotted around his neck. Over all he gives the appearance of being a sailor.” Lechmere was nearly 40 in 1888, but we know that age can be often difficult to estimate. Was this Lechmere? Does this description fit with what you know of Lechmere’s appearance circa 1888?
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Old 12-07-2016, 12:05 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick S View Post
It’s time, I think, to move Lechmere in a different direction. Let’s take the discussion out of Buck’s Row……and into, shall we say, Mitre Square.

Catherine Eddowes left the Bishopsgate police station at approximately 1:00am on Sunday, September 30, 1888. Bishopsgate station was about a ten minute walk from Mitre Square, where PC Watkins discovered her body at approximately 1:45am.

Eddowes was murdered on Sunday. Thus, we can likely assume that Lechmere – if he killed Eddowes – did so outside time and geographic patterns associated with the route he took – likely Monday through Saturday - from his home in Doveton Street to his place of employment at Pickford’s in Broad Street. Let’s concede for the sake of discussion that the murders of Tabram (perhaps seen dead at approximately 3:00am, body discovered at 4:45am, Tuesday, August 7), Nichols (found dead at approximately 3:45am, Friday, August 31), and Chapman (found dead around 6:00am, Saturday, September 8) fit this pattern in that they occurred on days that Lechmere was likely working at Pickford’s, along or near his route to Pickford’s with the victim’s bodies found later in the morning than was Eddowes (approximately 1:45am rather than after 3:45am).

Christer has suggested that the deviation from the patterns can be attributed to Lechmere having been in that area, on a day off of work (Saturday night – Sunday morning) visiting his mother. My questions for Christer would be these:

B[]Is there evidence that Lechmere regularly visited his mother?[/b]

At the time of Eddowes’ murder Lechmere was father to 8 children aged between two and fifteen. How would Lechmere have accounted for his absence from wife and family without arousing his wife Elizabeth’s suspicion?

How far from Mitre Square did Lechmere’s mother live?


At around 1:35am – about ten minutes before she was found dead - Joseph Lawende saw a man with Eddowes at the corner of Duke Street and Church Passage (which led to Mitre Square). He described him as “30 years old, 5 foot 7 inches tall, fair complexion and mustache with a medium build. He is wearing a pepper and salt colored jacket which fits loosely, a grey cloth cap with a peak of the same color. He has a reddish handkerchief knotted around his neck. Over all he gives the appearance of being a sailor.” Lechmere was nearly 40 in 1888, but we know that age can be often difficult to estimate. Was this Lechmere? Does this description fit with what you know of Lechmere’s appearance circa 1888?
I know nothing of Lechmere´s appearance in 1888, other than how Mizen took him for a carman - and that will predominantly have owed to his clothing, reasonably.
One can perhaps establish the height of Lechmere from the photo we have of him, if there is a useful "matchbox" in it.
Other than that, no - I cannot say what he looked like in 1888. Nor can I say whether Lawendes man was the Ripper or not. He may or may not have been.

Is there evidence that Lechmere regularly visited his mother? No. There are tenuous indications - he had his daughter living with her, something that would reasonably make for further reasons to go there.
But his mother may not have been the only reason for him to visit St Georges - he had lived for decades in the area, and he had only recently left it. It would be a fair guess that he knew many people living there, and that the local pubs may have been his waterholes for many years. He may well have visited friends or pubs there on the night. The main point is that he had very close ties to the Berner Street area.

How would Lechmere have explained an absense from his family? The same way I explain to my wife at times, that I am popping over to visit my son, living in a village twelve miles away. Nothing odd there. Or sometimes I go out on the town by myself, to meet friends. Just as uncontroversial.

How far from Mitre Square did his mother live? At the time, she resided at 1 Mary Ann Street, so very, very close to Berner Street.
The reason he went to Mitre Square may well be knit to him having killed Stride and needed to get away from the vicinity. He may also have felt frustrated by not having had the opportunity to eviscerate Stride, and therefore he could have been on the prowl for further victim/s. If this was so, it was a logical move to leave Metropolitan Police territory and opt for the City area instead. And walking from Berner Street to the Mitre Square area would invilve walking more or less the same route as he walked for may a year between James Street and the Broad Street depot.
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Old 12-07-2016, 12:21 PM
Patrick S Patrick S is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
I know nothing of Lechmere´s appearance in 1888, other than how Mizen took him for a carman - and that will predominantly have owed to his clothing, reasonably.
One can perhaps establish the height of Lechmere from the photo we have of him, if there is a useful "matchbox" in it.
Other than that, no - I cannot say what he looked like in 1888. Nor can I say whether Lawendes man was the Ripper or not. He may or may not have been.

Is there evidence that Lechmere regularly visited his mother? No. There are tenuous indications - he had his daughter living with her, something that would reasonably make for further reasons to go there.
But his mother may not have been the only reason for him to visit St Georges - he had lived for decades in the area, and he had only recently left it. It would be a fair guess that he knew many people living there, and that the local pubs may have been his waterholes for many years. He may well have visited friends or pubs there on the night. The main point is that he had very close ties to the Berner Street area.

How would Lechmere have explained an absense from his family? The same way I explain to my wife at times, that I am popping over to visit my son, living in a village twelve miles away. Nothing odd there. Or sometimes I go out on the town by myself, to meet friends. Just as uncontroversial.

How far from Mitre Square did his mother live? At the time, she resided at 1 Mary Ann Street, so very, very close to Berner Street.
The reason he went to Mitre Square may well be knit to him having killed Stride and needed to get away from the vicinity. He may also have felt frustrated by not having had the opportunity to eviscerate Stride, and therefore he could have been on the prowl for further victim/s. If this was so, it was a logical move to leave Metropolitan Police territory and opt for the City area instead. And walking from Berner Street to the Mitre Square area would invilve walking more or less the same route as he walked for may a year between James Street and the Broad Street depot.
Interesting. I'd forgotten about his daughter living with his mother around that time.

The photo of Lechmere is a fantastic find, Jack the Ripper, witness, or otherwise.

So his mother lived nearer to Berner Street and Stride. Thus, not close to Mitre Square. So, if we are looking to fit Lechmere to Eddowes then, it's more likely that he killed Stride and then went in search of another victim, ultimately Eddowes in Mitre Square. And his (presumed) route out of Mitre Square then took him back toward Berner Street?
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  #4  
Old 12-07-2016, 12:58 PM
MysterySinger MysterySinger is offline
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Perhaps Lechmere liked a drink.
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Old 12-07-2016, 01:32 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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[quote=Fisherman;402708]

Quote:
I know nothing of Lechmere´s appearance in 1888, other than how Mizen took him for a carman - and that will predominantly have owed to his clothing, reasonably.
"Reasonably"? Historically, on the other hand, Lechmere could have told Mizen his profession.

Quote:
One can perhaps establish the height of Lechmere from the photo we have of him, if there is a useful "matchbox" in it.

Other than that, no - I cannot say what he looked like in 1888. Nor can I say whether Lawendes man was the Ripper or not. He may or may not have been.
Quote:
Is there evidence that Lechmere regularly visited his mother? No.
Historically, his mother had nothing to do with the murders of Jack the Ripper. And the lack of sources you are experiencing is confirming this. Sorry.

Quote:
There are tenuous indications - he had his daughter living with her, something that would reasonably make for further reasons to go there.
Beware of visiting you mother! You may be called a "serial killer"!

Quote:
But his mother may not have been the only reason for him to visit St Georges - he had lived for decades in the area, and he had only recently left it. It would be a fair guess that he knew many people living there, and that the local pubs may have been his waterholes for many years. He may well have visited friends or pubs there on the night. The main point is that he had very close ties to the Berner Street area.
The reason why a serial killer is on a murder site is not that he is seeing his friends and relatives. The reason is the murder.

Quote:
How would Lechmere have explained an absense from his family? The same way I explain to my wife at times, that I am popping over to visit my son, living in a village twelve miles away. Nothing odd there. Or sometimes I go out on the town by myself, to meet friends. Just as uncontroversial.
Any man in 1888 could have gone out to do whatever he pleased if he was not tied to apron strings.

Quote:
How far from Mitre Square did his mother live? At the time, she resided at 1 Mary Ann Street, so very, very close to Berner Street.
As did a lot of mothers.

Quote:
The reason he went to Mitre Square may well be knit to him having killed Stride and needed to get away from the vicinity.
Why would a killer murder in his own neighbourhood surrounded by friends and family, taking an extremely high risk of being immediately recognized by all those who knew who he was?

Quote:
He may also have felt frustrated
Do you have a source for Lechmere feeling frustration? Because others, like me, have real, existing sources for people feeling very, very frustrated.

Quote:
by not having had the opportunity to eviscerate Stride, and therefore he could have been on the prowl for further victim/s.
No. I can´t see it. The confused happy-go-lucky-me-killer drifting around without structure, overreacting - contradictory to your "psychopath"-ad-hoc - to his own mistakes (!) and failing to do things in a structured, planned and organized manner.

That is not Jack the Ripper. The killer had a plan, he had a knife and a piece of chalk in his pocket.

Quote:
If this was so, it was a logical move to leave Metropolitan Police territory and opt for the City area instead.
You acknowledge that he was thinking rationally now. So why would he first fail and then do it right? No. Stride was meant to be as she was. She was the first and the first could not be disembowelled due to the blood he would generate on his own person. He wanted her to be found quickly. Those two facts = no blood from disembowelling her and finding her quickly was constructed by the killer. It is there. You can see it.

Quote:
And walking from Berner Street to the Mitre Square area would invilve walking more or less the same route as he walked for may a year between James Street and the Broad Street depot.
The habitual walk, is that what determines why Eddowes had to die?

No, Fisherman.

It only shows that you have no sources for Lechmere being Jack the Ripper.

Kind regards, Pierre

Last edited by Pierre : 12-07-2016 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 12-07-2016, 01:44 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Patrick S View Post
Interesting. I'd forgotten about his daughter living with his mother around that time.

The photo of Lechmere is a fantastic find, Jack the Ripper, witness, or otherwise.

So his mother lived nearer to Berner Street and Stride. Thus, not close to Mitre Square. So, if we are looking to fit Lechmere to Eddowes then, it's more likely that he killed Stride and then went in search of another victim, ultimately Eddowes in Mitre Square. And his (presumed) route out of Mitre Square then took him back toward Berner Street?
He had been working in Broad Street for twenty years plus, and reasoning that he would be aware of the prostitution up by St Botolph´s, very close to Broad Street and Mitre Square and indeed to the route he would have walked to work for many years, is clearly viable. He would therefore know that this was a surrounding where he could find a victim. Plus he would escape Metropolitan territory.
My presumption is that he went to the depot after the Eddowes strike, that he could enter the premises and wash up and perhaps hide trophies (if he kept them). This would explain Alfred Longs assertion that the apron was not in place in Goulston Street at 2.20. And Goulston Street would be a street he could very well pass through regardless if he came from Mitre Square or the Broad Street depot, heading for Doveton Street. He would pass some way north of the murder site in Berner Street.

Last edited by Fisherman : 12-07-2016 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 12-07-2016, 01:49 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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QUOTE=Fisherman;402732

He had been working in Broad Street for twenty years plus, and reasoning that he would be aware of the prostitution up by St Botolph´s, very close to Broad Street and Mitre Square and indeed to the route he would have walked to work for many years, is clearly viable. He would therefore know that this was a surrounding where he could find a victim. Plus he would escape Metropolitan territory.

My presumption is that he went to the depot after the Eddowes strike, that he could enter the premises and wash up and perhaps hide trophies (if he kept them). This would explain Alfred Longs assertion that the apron was not in place in Goulston Street at 2.20. And Goulston Street would be a street he could very well pass through regardless if he came from Mitre Square or the Broad Street depot, heading for Doveton Street.
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Old 12-07-2016, 05:04 PM
Henry Flower Henry Flower is offline
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Do you have a source for Lechmere feeling frustration? Because others, like me, have real, existing sources for people feeling very, very frustrated.
No Pierre. You dont.

You don't have those sources. You claim to have them, but you don't.

You are such a little shltweasel.
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Old 12-08-2016, 05:59 AM
Patrick S Patrick S is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
He had been working in Broad Street for twenty years plus, and reasoning that he would be aware of the prostitution up by St Botolph´s, very close to Broad Street and Mitre Square and indeed to the route he would have walked to work for many years, is clearly viable. He would therefore know that this was a surrounding where he could find a victim. Plus he would escape Metropolitan territory.
My presumption is that he went to the depot after the Eddowes strike, that he could enter the premises and wash up and perhaps hide trophies (if he kept them). This would explain Alfred Longs assertion that the apron was not in place in Goulston Street at 2.20. And Goulston Street would be a street he could very well pass through regardless if he came from Mitre Square or the Broad Street depot, heading for Doveton Street. He would pass some way north of the murder site in Berner Street.
Seeing as Lechmere's mother and daughter were living near Berner Street (and Stride) do you feel that crediting the Ripper (and Lechmere) for Stride is important for fitting Lechmere into the killers presumed/likely movements on the night of the "Double Event" and Mitre Square (Eddowes)?

I ask because Mitre Square was much nearer to Broad Street and Pickford's than it was to Berner Street. It would seem more reasonable that if Lechmere had decided to find a victim near Mitre Square he would have done so within the pattern that had held for Tabram, Nichols, and Chapman (along his route to work).
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Old 12-08-2016, 07:50 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Patrick S: Seeing as Lechmere's mother and daughter were living near Berner Street (and Stride) do you feel that crediting the Ripper (and Lechmere) for Stride is important for fitting Lechmere into the killers presumed/likely movements on the night of the "Double Event" and Mitre Square (Eddowes)?

I am not doing any "fitting" here, Patrick. I am working from the assumption that Lechmere killed Nichols, and I think that Nichols belonged to a serie of killings perpetrated by the same man, so I am reasoning that Lechmere must be the best bid for the others in the series too.
From there, I look at where the other killings went down, and I try to see if I can make sense of the locations visavi Lechmere - after all, I am reasoning that he killed Nichols and the rest, and so trying to find some sort of pattern that makes sense is vital.
We can all see that four out of six victims fell prey at sites that seemingly tally with the logical routes Lechmere would have walked to Broad Street. Any of these murders could have been to the north, the east or the south of Bucks Row, but they are all to the west, and none of them are out of what would have been the quickest and easiest routes to Broad Street. Lechmere therefore seems to fit the bill in these cases.
The Stride/Eddowes combination does not fit the working trek bill. But Stride was killed in the very area where Lechmere had spent most of his life, and where he would be totally aquainted with the surroundings. Plus he would reasonably have had ample reason to visit the area.
Eddowes was killed in Mitre Square, and Mitre Square lies pretty much along the route Lechmere would reasonably have used when walking from James Street to Broad Street for a long stretch of years. He would, as I have pointed out, have had every reasom to be familiar with the fact that prostitution was rife up at St Botolphs and on the surrounding streets, so if he had killed Stride and gone searching for another victim, the area around St Botolphs would have served many purposes - it would provide prostitutes/victims, it would take him out of the Met searchlight and it would put him close to Broad Street, in a surrounding that would have been well known to him. And it would explain Longs not seeing the rag in Goulston Street at 2.20.
I also reason that we have six victims, and that four out of these were killed along his logical work treks. Therefore, these would preferably need to align with working days, and they would preferably need to align with the approximate time at which Lechmere seems to have walked to Broad Street.
Interestingly, they all do.
The other two victims seem to have been killed on a night when Lechmere was not due in Broad Street on the following day - they were killed on his evening off, if he worked normal weeks. And they were NOT killed between 3 and 4 AM.
It therefore adds up very well.
We can divide the victims up in a C4 and a C2 group, and if we do, we can observe that if we move any of the C4 victims north or south, east of Doveton Street or west of Broad Street, the alignment goes away.
Same thing if we move the killing times to two hours earlier or later - and the presumption that he killed en route to work goes awry.
None of these things happen, however.
If we move any of the C2 victims into his working trek area, things become strange too, for the same reason - what was he doing there on a Saturday night?
In the context they were killed, however, they make perfect sense.
Lechmere is totally unique in this respect - no other suspect comes anywhere close to filling his costume when it comes to identifyable reasons to have been at all six murder sites.
Lechmere is therefore the person who fits in. I am not doing that fitting - I am pointing to how he does it.


I ask because Mitre Square was much nearer to Broad Street and Pickford's than it was to Berner Street. It would seem more reasonable that if Lechmere had decided to find a victim near Mitre Square he would have done so within the pattern that had held for Tabram, Nichols, and Chapman (along his route to work).

In neither of those cases were the police swarming the Met area on account of a freshly perpetrated murder, though. So it makes sense to me that he chose the City grounds, taking him out of harm´s way.
And why would he kill along his route to work if he was not working? It was Saturday night, and he was not walking the work trek streets.
I would suggest that the Ripper murders were all opportunist slayings. I don´t think he stalked either of the victims, I think he pounced when he felt the situation allowed for it. I feel certain that he will have walked past a large number of potential victims on account of not liking the surroundings. Killing en route to work would equal killing in the window of opportunity that opened up each morning. It was dark, he was alone, the streets were more or less empty and there were lonely streetwalkers to be found. It would be the ideal hunting ground for a killer of the type we are looking at.
Stride was not killed along his working route. She was slain some way south of it. If he chose between walking up to the area where he had killed thrice before and walking west into city territory, I think he made the opportunists choice here too - he would have judged it a place that combined much prey with more safety than his earlier haunts.

Last edited by Fisherman : 12-08-2016 at 07:59 AM.
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