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Bridget Kelly born Chatham

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  • #31
    Thank you Debra. Fascinating reading. Do we know if Bridget was transferred to Millbank?

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    • #32
      Originally posted by cats meat man View Post
      Thank you Debra. Fascinating reading. Do we know if Bridget was transferred to Millbank?
      She was, CMM.
      She was sent to Millbank from Clerkenwell on 30 Oct 82 to 12 April 83 when she was transferred to Woking.

      Just for interest here's her description and previous from the file:

      Complexion-fair
      Hair-brown
      Eyes-dark grey
      height 5ft 5 and a half inches
      build-stout
      shape of face-oval

      Scar on forehead left arm and thumb right hand
      ears pierced

      previous convictions:
      7 days 2/1/80 Worship St -drunk
      7 days 7/4/80 Thames-disorderly
      12 mos. 30/4/80 Thames-assault
      14 days 13/11/80 Worship St-assault
      1mo. 2/12/80 Worship St-assault
      2 mos. 6/1/81 Worship St (stg print) [stg=stealing?]
      21 days 3/8/81 Worship St-riotous
      18 mos. 19/9/81 Middlesex sessions Ly person [I think this is larceny from the person] /stg 6/- + 4mos. for wounding

      Strangely, there doesn't seem to be a sentence covering the census in April 81 when she was in Tothill Fields.

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      • #33
        Scar on forehead left arm and thumb right hand
        ears pierced
        If Bridget was MJK, wouldn't Barnett have used the scars to identify her, rather than less specific thing like hair & eye colour?

        Regards, Bridewell.
        I won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
          If Bridget was MJK, wouldn't Barnett have used the scars to identify her, rather than less specific thing like hair & eye colour?

          Regards, Bridewell.
          Hmm. I doubt it. Weren't these all sites of wounds/defensive wounds?
          Not as obvious as if Mrs Carthy or Mrs Phoenix really knew and described MJK then Barnett could have identified her by her false teeth?!

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
            If Bridget was MJK, wouldn't Barnett have used the scars to identify her, rather than less specific thing like hair & eye colour?

            Regards, Bridewell.
            hair?

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            • #36


              Originally posted by Debra A View Post
              hair?
              Hi Debs,

              Apologies. That's what you get for relying on memory. He actually said,

              "I identify her by the ear and the eyes".

              A bit strange, in itself, when read in conjunction with Dr Bond:

              "The face was gashed in all directions, the nose, cheeks, eyebrows and ears being partly removed."

              What was he able to identify about a partly-removed ear exactly?

              Regards, Bridewell.
              I won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.

              Comment


              • #37
                The peculiar shape...apparently. Ask Tom Robinson.
                And where does the distinctive hair come from?
                Last edited by Debra A; 05-11-2012, 10:31 PM.

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                • #38
                  Looking at Bridget's photo and physical description, kindly posted by Debra, would not rule out her being MJK,in my opinion. The hairline and jawline look similiar to the MJK crime scene photo, although I'm not an expert at that type of thing. Then there's the nodules of consolidation in the substances of the lung to take into account.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Debra A View Post
                    She was, CMM.
                    She was sent to Millbank from Clerkenwell on 30 Oct 82 to 12 April 83 when she was transferred to Woking.

                    Just for interest here's her description and previous from the file:

                    Complexion-fair
                    Hair-brown
                    Eyes-dark grey
                    height 5ft 5 and a half inches
                    build-stout
                    shape of face-oval

                    Scar on forehead left arm and thumb right hand
                    ears pierced

                    previous convictions:
                    7 days 2/1/80 Worship St -drunk
                    7 days 7/4/80 Thames-disorderly
                    12 mos. 30/4/80 Thames-assault
                    14 days 13/11/80 Worship St-assault
                    1mo. 2/12/80 Worship St-assault
                    2 mos. 6/1/81 Worship St (stg print) [stg=stealing?]
                    21 days 3/8/81 Worship St-riotous
                    18 mos. 19/9/81 Middlesex sessions Ly person [I think this is larceny from the person] /stg 6/- + 4mos. for wounding

                    Strangely, there doesn't seem to be a sentence covering the census in April 81 when she was in Tothill Fields.
                    Hi Debra. I was wondering If Bridget was awarded any additional days to her sentence, perhaps as a punishment for something she had done during her 2 mos sentence 06/01/81. Is there any info in her file to indicate this?
                    The female convict prison at Woking looks to be Knaphill in 1883.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by cats meat man View Post
                      Hi Debra. I was wondering If Bridget was awarded any additional days to her sentence, perhaps as a punishment for something she had done during her 2 mos sentence 06/01/81. Is there any info in her file to indicate this?
                      The female convict prison at Woking looks to be Knaphill in 1883.
                      Hi CMM,

                      I think that is what probably happened too. Her file only concerns her last stay in prison when she was released earlier on licence (the April 81 stay would be a couple of sentences previous)
                      Looking at her records though she was trouble and always in fights. On her last sentence she lost 73 days remission for bad behavior and was always losing marks towards remission for acts of disobedience or violence.
                      She even had to be taken back to prison from the East End refuge Finchley while awaiting release because she refused to do the laundry work allocated to her and went AWOL.
                      So, yeah...it wouldn't surprise me if her 2 mos. was extended too.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Licence

                        Originally posted by Debra A View Post
                        Hi CMM,

                        I think that is what probably happened too. Her file only concerns her last stay in prison when she was released earlier on licence (the April 81 stay would be a couple of sentences previous)
                        Looking at her records though she was trouble and always in fights. On her last sentence she lost 73 days remission for bad behavior and was always losing marks towards remission for acts of disobedience or violence.
                        She even had to be taken back to prison from the East End refuge Finchley while awaiting release because she refused to do the laundry work allocated to her and went AWOL.
                        So, yeah...it wouldn't surprise me if her 2 mos. was extended too.
                        Hi Debs & CMM,

                        I don't know if procedures were the same than as now but, if an offence was committed whilst she was on licence, she would probably have been recalled to prison. Any term of imprisonment imposed for the new offence could have been consecutive to that.

                        Regards, Bridewell.
                        I won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Thank you Debra & Bridewell. There's also the difference between concurrent and consecutive sentences if this applied back then:
                          Concurrent sentences. When sentences run concurrently, defendants serve all the sentences at the same time.
                          Consecutive sentences. When sentences run consecutively, defendants have to finish serving the sentence for one offence before they start serving the sentence for any other offence.
                          If a defendant is convicted of a number of crimes that carry lengthy prison terms, the difference between consecutive and concurrent sentences can be tremendous. The same factors that judges tend to consider when deciding on the severity of a sentence (for example, a defendant’s past record) also affect their decisions on whether to give concurrent or consecutive sentences.
                          It does look like Bridget was regularly in breach of her licence conditions and recalled as a result. The link below is interesting as it mentions emigration, ' a woman named Kelly ' and the name of Bridget in 1887:
                          The website also lists prisoners released on conditional licence to places like the East End Refuge at Finchley.

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