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  #3251  
Old 04-19-2018, 06:59 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Interesting hypothesis, Jerry, and not implausible either. Whatever actually happened, I get the distinct feeling that there was something very "other" going on in the Pinchin Street case. And by "other", I don't mean "weird", just different from the rest.
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  #3252  
Old 04-19-2018, 07:04 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
-Look here, Sarge, there´s two women lying dead out in the street. And they both have had their necks cut.

-Then it´s probably the same ki...

-And look! Their abdomens have been opened up!

- As I said, it is pro...

-Oh dear God! They have had their wombs cut out, both of them!

-Yes, there can be no doubt that ...

-Eeeek! They have had their abdominal walls cut away in large sections, lying beside them!!

-Well, when it´s the same killer, that is what will happ...

-Oh, look! One of them has eight bruises on her forearm, while the other has bruised shoulders.

- WHAT!? So it was two killers after all! The bastards!
And, as ever, it appears that.....

Any similarities (no matter how debateable) = an overwhelming likelihod of one killer

however,

Any glaring dissimilarities = can be fancifully explained away.

Why does one half of the ‘evidence’ appeare to trump everytime the other half?

I dont get it.
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  #3253  
Old 04-19-2018, 07:14 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Interesting hypothesis, Jerry, and not implausible either. Whatever actually happened, I get the distinct feeling that there was something very "other" going on in the Pinchin Street case. And by "other", I don't mean "weird", just different from the rest.
Hebbert got the distinct feeling that the knife work and the disarticulations pointed straight to a single killer. Whis is to be expected too, given how rare these murders were.

The Rainham victim and Jackson were of course very close in apparition, having had their trunks cut in three and having lost heart and lungs alike, plus they had both been cut all the way from sternum to pelvis.

In that sense, the Pinchin Street victim differs. But so does the Whitehall victim as well as the 1873 and 1884 victims. Not to speak of the Tottenham torso.

My guess is that what bothers you the most is that the victim was found on Pinchin Street in the East, but as I have pointed out, there are other dump sites that are equally removed from what we may (or may not) perceive to be the epicentre.

The 1873 victim was apparently hung up to drain the blood out. That may well have meant that rope was used. Maybe this is a close connection with the Pinchin Street woman?

Most of it boils down to the combined fact that these kinds of killings are extremely rare, plus there was evidence telling Hebbert that it was in all likelihood just the one killer. That is a major wall to tear down, and I fail to see why we would give it a try unless there were major indicators that Hebbert was wrong and real evidence pointing to two killers with different mindsets and urges.

Once we reason that it was two killers with the exact same urges, we may need to reassess our take on things.
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  #3254  
Old 04-19-2018, 07:24 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
And, as ever, it appears that.....

Any similarities (no matter how debateable) = an overwhelming likelihod of one killer

however,

Any glaring dissimilarities = can be fancifully explained away.

Why does one half of the ‘evidence’ appeare to trump everytime the other half?

I dont get it.
Okay. I will try again.

In every two murders that have been committed around the world throughout history, there have been factors that have differed. There will ALWAYS be differences. Always. It is a law of nature.

The alternative is that two exactly similar victims are killed in the exact same locality at the exact same time in the exact same way. That is physically impossible.

Ergo: There WILL be differences. There MUST be.

There must NOT be similarities, however. Some similarities may be run-of-the mill things: both killed in the same month. Both killed by knife. Both prostitutes.

These are things that will interest the police, but they do not make for a very safe case of the same identity.

But when the similarities are rare or extremely rare, then they DO make for such a case. And as I have shown, there has been 2 (two) eviscerating serial killers in Britain the last 218 years. Not in the same area. Not at the same time. Not killing in the same way. Not interested in the same sex.

But they DID both eviscerate.

That is how utterly uncommon these creatures are. So when you have them in the same city, at the same time, doing the same things and when those things are ridiculously rare, then - let me put is like this - screw the differences, Herlock. If they are not unsurmountable - and they are not in any shape or form - then they will have their explanations and they will NOT be of the same importance as the similarities.

Are you truly saying that you cannot understnad this? If two people are killed by having their hearts embrooidered with the Chelsea club emblem, but one of them is a woman and the other a man - should we then say that the major, major difference is enough to make it as unlikely with one killer as it is likely?

No.

The similarities rule the day, and have always done so.

I hope that we can come to some sort of understanding about this, because it is beginning to be very tiresome to explain. Sorry, but there you are.
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  #3255  
Old 04-19-2018, 07:26 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
And, as ever, it appears that.....

Any similarities (no matter how debateable) = an overwhelming likelihod of one killer

however,

Any glaring dissimilarities = can be fancifully explained away.

Why does one half of the ‘evidence’ appeare to trump everytime the other half?

I dont get it.
Okay. I will try again.

In every two murders that have been committed around the world throughout history, there have been factors that have differed. There will ALWAYS be differences. Always. It is a law of nature.

The alternative is that two exactly similar victims are killed in the exact same locality at the exact same time in the exact same way. That is physically impossible.

Ergo: There WILL be differences. There MUST be.

There must NOT be similarities, however. Some similarities may be run-of-the mill things: both killed in the same month. Both killed by knife. Both prostitutes.

These are things that will interest the police, but they do not make for a very safe case of the same identity.

But when the similarities are rare or extremely rare, then they DO make for such a case. And as I have shown, there has been 2 (two) eviscerating serial killers in Britain the last 218 years. Not in the same area. Not at the same time. Not killing in the same way. Not interested in the same sex.

But they DID both eviscerate.

That is how utterly uncommon these creatures are. So when you have them in the same city, at the same time, doing the same things and when those things are ridiculously rare, then - let me put is like this - screw the differences, Herlock. If they are not unsurmountable - and they are not in any shape or form - then they will have their explanations and they will NOT be of the same importance as the similarities.

Are you truly saying that you cannot understnad this? If two people are killed by having their hearts embrooidered with the Chelsea club emblem, but one of them is a woman and the other a man - should we then say that the major, major difference is enough to make it as unlikely with one killer as it is likely?

No.

The similarities rule the day, and have always done so.

I hope that we can come to some sort of understanding about this, because it is beginning to be very tiresome to explain. Sorry, but there you are.

PS. And it is not "any similarities", Herlock. Let´s be fair and admit that I have always said that the MORE and the MORE UNUSUAL similarities, the greater the risk of a common killer.
Both having toenails is NOT a clincher. Both having been eviscerated and having had their uteri and their abdominal walls taken away is, however.
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  #3256  
Old 04-19-2018, 07:41 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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But he DID remove organs from the ones killed in private - Jackson lost her womb, her lungs and her heart. And the Whitehall torso was lacking organs, certainly the uterus. The Rainham victim was cut up through the sternum and all the way down, and her lungs and heart were missing.
Fish, I'm aware that organs were missing in other Torso cases, but be that as it may, the Pinchin St case still poses a problem when trying to establish a pattern of behaviour. In the canonical five series, the killer has a clear trajectory that becomes increasingly violent with each mark. 60% of the victims had their internal organs removed. When you interpolate the Torso series into this sequence, the killer's behaviour becomes erratic and inconsistent. Not that I'm saying this is irreconcilable but it's valid criticism of the theory.
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  #3257  
Old 04-19-2018, 08:04 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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The lack of evisceration/excision in the Pinchin St torso is problematic for the one killer theory. Was the abdominal wound and disposal in Whitechapel an attempt to mislead the authorities into pinning this on the Ripper? Again, we don't know what mission the killer was on when he was removing organs and limbs, but why would he remove organs from street victims when there was less time and more pressure, and not ones killed in private?
Hi harry
Great question. IMHO it’s because removing both internal and external body parts were both part of his thing, and at certain times he was after different parts. But also that his certain circumstances might have also dictated what he could go after at different times.

What he was doing with the parts I have no idea.
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  #3258  
Old 04-19-2018, 08:09 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
Fish, I'm aware that organs were missing in other Torso cases, but be that as it may, the Pinchin St case still poses a problem when trying to establish a pattern of behaviour. In the canonical five series, the killer has a clear trajectory that becomes increasingly violent with each mark. 60% of the victims had their internal organs removed. When you interpolate the Torso series into this sequence, the killer's behaviour becomes erratic and inconsistent. Not that I'm saying this is irreconcilable but it's valid criticism of the theory.
The Ripper series only escalates in violence throughout if we rule out MacKenzie, Harry. Rule her IN and you have an amazing parallel. Erratic and inconsistent, just as you say.

At the end of the day, you are welcome to rule out as many as you want to in both series, should you feel like it - apart from Chapman, Kelly and Jackson. They very obviously fell prey to the same man.

If we have another, two other, three other or more killerrs responsible for the rest, well ... I don´t think so. But any argumentation working from other victims than "my" three stands a better chance of being correct.

Better. Not good, mind you.
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  #3259  
Old 04-19-2018, 08:21 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
-Look here, Sarge, there´s two women lying dead out in the street. And they both have had their necks cut.
- Correction, constable. One of them has had her throat cut, and the other's head has been cut off. We police must be precise, you know. Wouldn't want to twist the evidence, would we?

- No, Sarge

- I mean, that's the way innocent people get hanged, and that'll never do.
Quote:
-And look! Their abdomens have been opened up! They have had their wombs cut out, both of them!
- Hang on a minute, though. Here's three other women who have had their heads cut off, but their abdomens weren't opened up or their wombs cut out. In fact, the only things that were removed were their limbs.

- Where, here in Whitechapel?

- No, Sarge, eight miles away near Battersea.

- Well, what's that got to do with us?

- Nothing, Sarge

- Right. Now file your report and go home, there's a good lad
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  #3260  
Old 04-19-2018, 08:42 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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In the canonical five series, the killer has a clear trajectory that becomes increasingly violent with each mark. 60% of the victims had their internal organs removed.
And Nichols was probably headed that way, too, making it 80% of the victims. If one discounts Stride as a Ripper victim - and I do - it's getting on for 100%. Even if one includes Stride and accepts that the Ripper was interrupted, there's a fair chance that she'd have ended up the same way if Dymshitz hadn't turned up.

None of the Ripper victims was pregnant (à la Jackson), and none of them had been sawn in half above the pelvis (à la Whitehall). These two factors alone are sufficient to explain why their abdominal organs had been extracted - you can't have all those wobbly bits hanging out and sloshing around when you're carrying the torso to the dump-site. It gets very slippery, which makes the torso harder to handle and conceal.

None of these concerns applied to any of the Ripper victims, so the reason for disembowelling them seems to be fundamentally, and obviously, different.
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