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The ALLEGED photograph of the Kelly family

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  • Not so old....

    See, this is MY kind of census taker. Think I will chat him up for my next enumeration.
    You wish Lynn!

    But at least you were always born in the same place...this one's got a split personality to match Psycho!

    Dave

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cogidubnus View Post
      50 in the 1881 census, 50 in the 1891 census, (ok we know census records get confusing this way) but born 1832 or 1836. Are we really sure these are the same people Livia?

      All the best

      Baffled of Bognor
      Ancestry's submitted family trees are not always reliable things, as Liv and I can testify to from past experience!

      Given that Mary Madden appears not to have aged in 10 years, the 1881 and 1891 entries can be compared in other ways. The two sons Michael and Timothy have the same year of birth in both entries and were born in the same place. The streets they are living on in 1881 and 1891 are right next door to each other.

      Comment


      • Nagging doubts

        Hi Debs

        Yeah I'd go with that (In all honesty I'd go with most things you'd tell me) but it's the differing places of birth that bug me...ok Cork and Limerick adjoin but still I wonder...

        All the best

        Dave

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cogidubnus View Post
          Hi Debs

          Yeah I'd go with that (In all honesty I'd go with most things you'd tell me) but it's the differing places of birth that bug me...ok Cork and Limerick adjoin but still I wonder...

          All the best

          Dave
          Hi Dave, that's what my first line's about. Limerick as a place of birth is Ancestry family tree submitted..

          Most things? ...There were no grapes!

          Comment


          • Hi Debs

            I said MOST things...as a tribute both to your research and honesty!

            Love it

            Dave

            Comment


            • Over there

              that's what my first line's about. Limerick as a place of birth is Ancestry family tree submitted..
              Our membership's lapsed Debs so I can't check...but does the tree indicate North American descendants?

              Dave

              Comment


              • Hi Debs, Cog

                There's two owner submitted trees for the Madden/Donovan
                family, the one I posted is the better researched of the two
                (the other only includes Michael and Timothy). The tree I
                posted here seems to be a work in progress, the owner's last
                login was today. It contains many exact death and marriage
                dates, the last death date in 2003 in Timothy's line. If I had
                to guess I'd say that the owner is descended from Timothy
                Madden, as that line ends in several "private" entries.

                Three of the Maddens married into the Gleeson family (Johanna,
                Catherine and Michael), Timothy married a Downs.

                The owner has Denis Donovan, Mary's father, listed as born in
                Shandrum Cork on 16 Jul 1797. Shandrum is only about 17 miles
                from Manister.

                It doesn't appear as though any of them emigrated. Most, if
                not all, ended up in England.

                But for the lack of sources, I'd say this tree seems accurate
                in that there's no glaring errors. It looks like a fair amount of
                research was done to compile it. It also looks like the owner
                has gone as far as she can with her father's line and is now
                working on her mother's.

                Liv
                Last edited by Livia; 04-07-2012, 01:57 AM. Reason: addditional info

                Comment


                • Hi Liv

                  So unlikely to be connected to the photograph we've been shown...

                  Bless you for trying!

                  Thanks

                  Dave

                  Comment


                  • 2 Kellys

                    Originally posted by Livia View Post
                    Hi Chris,

                    If it would not involve too much hassle on your part,
                    would it be possible to cut the portion of the family
                    picture that contains the fiddler and post it next to
                    the picture of James Kelly, Broadmoor escapee and fiddle
                    player, on this thread?

                    And if it's not asking too much, also the picture of James
                    Kelly as an old man next to the elder Mr John Kelly?

                    Might make for an interesting comparison.

                    Both pictures of James Kelly are in Tully's book,
                    Prisoner 1167. I can scan them and send them
                    to you if that would help.

                    Thanks,

                    Liv
                    I've had a bash Livia, my photoshop skills are not great I'm afraid. Also, I could only find the young James Kelly photo.

                    Cheers,
                    Harry
                    Attached Files
                    aye aye! keep yer 'and on yer pfennig!

                    Comment


                    • Good job, your photoshop skills far exceed mine.

                      Thanks very much Harry.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Livia View Post

                        The owner has Denis Donovan, Mary's father, listed as born in
                        Shandrum Cork on 16 Jul 1797. Shandrum is only about 17 miles
                        from Manister.
                        Thanks, Liv. That probably explains why Mary wrote Cork as her place of birth in 1901 then. But I agree with Dave, no one seems to have emigrated so there doesn't look like there's any connection other than they had a lodger named John Kelly in April 1881.

                        Was it the photo of James Kelly with his carer that you want posting?

                        Comment


                        • Was it the photo of James Kelly with his carer that you want posting?
                          Ignore this. I just realised that's not really him. It's another James Kelly and his wife who've been 'nicked' by a website about James kelly. I thought there was a resemblance too

                          Comment


                          • Hi Debs,

                            I only know of two, the one Harry posted above
                            and the one of JK as an old man.

                            There's another?

                            If you think it's worth it, then yes, please post it (if you
                            have it).

                            While there is a slight facial resemblance (mostly below
                            the eyes), the coloring of the fiddler and JK seems at odds.
                            JK looks very dark, while the fiddler seems very fair. The
                            style of the facial hair is similar though. I can't see any
                            similarities of the elderly James Kelly to John Joseph Kelly
                            of the family photo.

                            I've looked into James Kelly's history and as you'd expect
                            it's not straightforward either. On the 1861 census, there's:

                            Teresa Kelly Head born c. 1809 married born in Chatham Brompton
                            Teresa Jenkins Dau born c. 1841 married born in Isle of Man
                            Sarah Kelly born Dau c. 1844 unmarried born in Altrincham
                            Amelia Wilson Niece born c. 1838 unmarried born in Ireland
                            James Jenkins Grandson born c. 1860 born in Preston

                            So if James Jenkins was in fact James Kelly, add another
                            list to the names he was known by, Jim Kelly, Jim Allan,
                            John Miller and James Jenkins.

                            I couldn't find a marriage record for Teresa Jenkins,
                            but her baptismal record gives her parents as Teresa
                            and John Kelly, b. June 10, 1839, Godparents Ann
                            and Thomas Kelly. No baptismal record for Sarah,
                            but there was another daughter named Bridget,
                            born April 1st, 1843, parents John and Teresa,
                            Godmother Ann Kelly.

                            I also looked at the records for Mary Molter, JK's
                            aunt. Provided she wasn't previously married, her
                            maiden name was Sherry, so it's possible that Teresa
                            Kelly's maiden name was also Sherry.

                            So I'd have to agree with Tully, "no known relation
                            to Mary Jane Kelly".

                            Liv

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Debra A View Post
                              Ignore this. I just realised that's not really him. It's another James Kelly and his wife who've been 'nicked' by a website about James kelly. I thought there was a resemblance too
                              Yeah, I saw that one last night. Not even close!

                              Comment


                              • Dedicated follower...

                                I was having another think about the photo this afternoon.

                                My original thought was that it looked a bit on the early side...I was guessing by the men's clothing...However, looking at the younger Bridget, she's wearing the sort of dress I think a governess might have worn, and it appears to have leg of mutton sleeves...

                                So I've done some internet searching and I believe (I may be wrong - ladies fashion isn't my thing!) that these came in in the mid 90s, gradually grew more pronounced until 1905, then disappeared...I feel a young lady in a respectable position would likely dress more fashionably than the menfolk, for whom practicality is probably a greater consideration

                                Which would place the picture 1895 to 1905? Anyone more expert out there?

                                Best wishes

                                Dave

                                Comment

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