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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #21  
Old 07-22-2016, 04:01 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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Originally Posted by kjab3112 View Post
My major incident training included routes of ingress and egress. Pierre's map has triggered a thought, not one of the canonical five was more than five minutes walk from one of the (then new) District and Hammersmith train stations. These would have offered escape routes if open at the relevant times! Does anyone know about historic London Transport regional operations?
I'm not sure about trains providing an escape route....Dorset Street is probably 600yards or more from Aldgate East, and Hanbury St must be half a mile from it, and St Mary's Station. If the killer could get that far without being noticed, I'd say he'd already escaped.
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  #22  
Old 07-22-2016, 04:42 AM
kjab3112 kjab3112 is offline
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Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
I've done some research on it in the past, kjab. I'll see if I can dig up the threads I posted stuff in. You would benefit from Bernard Brown's dissertation on the matter as I suggested in my previous post.

I must have been writing while you posted. I see you mentioned the same thing. lol
Thanks, interesting reading, hadn't considered the ventilation shafts before
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  #23  
Old 07-22-2016, 05:02 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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I'd be very interested in this too, Jerry. I remember one of the maps in the CSI Whitechapel book demonstrates how close the murder sites were to railway stations, which I thought might be relevant.
It depends on your definition of 'close'. Whitechapel is ringed with railways, overground and underground, and I don't think it's physically possible to be more than 800yards from one station or another. So it's no surprise that railways and stations are 'close' to some of the murder sites. But the actual distances range from France's Coles and the Pinching St Torso (found under railway arches), Buck's Row (almost over the cutting of Whitechapel Station, although maybe 200yds from the entrance on the High St) to Miller's Court (1/3 mile from Aldgate E, Liverpool St and Bishopsgate Stations).
None of which rules out a connection to the railways somehow (a commuter killer could have chosen the area for it's handy transport links, for example), but that wouldn't help a local killer. The railway policeman is an intriguing theory, but would each railway company have had it's own separate police force?
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  #24  
Old 07-22-2016, 05:44 AM
Aldebaran Aldebaran is offline
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On the night of the Double Event, doesn't it make sense that the killer would be headed west, in the direction of home? The site of the murder of Liz Stride wasn't far from Commercial Road, which merged into Whitechapel Road, leading west. I am starting to lean toward this not being a killer who just happened to show up in the places that he did by serendipity, but I have to think about that some more. Regardless, for whatever reason the Double Event occurred, logic dictates the Ripper would be headed in the direction of his own lodgings. It was growing late. After all, Catherine Eddowes had just been released from jail at 1 am.

Last edited by Aldebaran : 07-22-2016 at 06:08 AM.
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  #25  
Old 07-22-2016, 06:09 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
I'm not sure about trains providing an escape route....Dorset Street is probably 600yards or more from Aldgate East, and Hanbury St must be half a mile from it, and St Mary's Station. If the killer could get that far without being noticed, I'd say he'd already escaped.
Shoreditch Station for these two murders was closer or even Bishopsgate [Liverpool Street Station].

Last edited by jerryd : 07-22-2016 at 06:14 AM.
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  #26  
Old 07-22-2016, 06:26 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Shoreditch Station for these two murders was closer or even Bishopsgate [Liverpool Street Station].
Hi Jerry,

This interesting site has some info on Shoreditch station and others.

It includes some early timetables (not from 1888 unfortunately, but unless there was a mass cutting of the services it doesn't seem that local passenger trains ran throughout the night).

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s...ch/index.shtml

Gary
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  #27  
Old 07-22-2016, 06:31 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Hi Jerry,

This interesting site has some info on Shoreditch station and others.

It includes some early timetables (not from 1888 unfortunately, but unless there was a mass cutting of the services it doesn't seem that local passenger trains ran throughout the night).

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s...ch/index.shtml

Gary
Hey Gary,

I believe (don't quote me yet) the underground trains stopped at either 12 or 1 a.m. I posted it somewhere and have forgotten the exact time.

By the way, after looking at the map on that website, the station I am talking about is to the right and down a bit from the blue arrow.

Last edited by jerryd : 07-22-2016 at 06:52 AM.
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  #28  
Old 07-22-2016, 06:55 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
Hey Gary,

I believe (don't quote me yet) the underground trains stopped at either 12 or 1 a.m. I posted it somewhere and have forgotten the exact time.

By the way, after looking at the map on that website, the station I am talking about is to the right and down a bit from your arrow.
Hi Jerry,

The arrow was already there. That Shoreditch station was on the line that came out of Broad Street, the one you mention, which was closer to Spitalfields, seems to have been on the Liverpool Street Line.

The point, though, as you say, is that commuter trains did not run in the small hours when most of the WM took place.

Do you know if Bradshaws Guides can be found online?


Gary
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  #29  
Old 07-22-2016, 07:05 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Hi Jerry,

The arrow was already there. That Shoreditch station was on the line that came out of Broad Street, the one you mention, which was closer to Spitalfields, seems to have been on the Liverpool Street Line.

The point, though, as you say, is that commuter trains did not run in the small hours when most of the WM took place.

Do you know if Bradshaws Guides can be found online?


Gary
Yes I corrected that. Thanks Gary.

The suggestion by Bernard Brown was the suspect was a railway policeman and was using the underground tubes as an escape route. Either to hide or travel by foot underground is the assumption. He mentioned the trains were steam operated at the time and "blow holes" were found in the streets to allow the steam to escape. These blow holes and stations, Brown suggests, are the way the ripper escaped.
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  #30  
Old 07-22-2016, 07:06 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
Shoreditch Station for these two murders was closer or even Bishopsgate [Liverpool Street Station].
Definitely closer to Hanbury St (Dorset St is about the same), but it was an East London Railway line at the time, not District or Hammersmith. It didn't become part of the underground system until 1913.
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