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  #3271  
Old 04-10-2017, 12:05 PM
John G John G is offline
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Originally Posted by caz View Post
I have finally found the time to address some of the posts made over the Christmas period, when I was having such trouble keeping up! Don't groan at the back there.



Not so fast…

Find fault with Feldman by all means [most of us can and have], but there is a danger of using his overenthusiastic but faulty reasoning to try and score points against the diary, which may be unwarranted. Find another error of Feldman's and bingo, it somehow morphs into a related error made by our hapless forger. But if the diary is being interpreted in the same way as Feldy did, and too much is being read into the words, or not enough, or the words are being changed to read something else, it may not be our diarist who was trying to be too clever.

As many probably know by now, I don't believe our hoaxer had to try that hard. I think he knew plenty about the Maybricks that we have since learned [Michael wrote lyrics as well as music, for example]; I suspect he had some inside info on the ripper (but only as good as whoever supplied it); he didn't need to practise with pen and ink if that was all he'd ever known; and he wouldn't have had to sweat the small stuff – like the speed of a horse race - or even some of the bigger stuff, like it not resembling Maybrick's handwriting - if it was only ever meant as a literary prank, or burlesque, to have some fun at the Maybricks' expense:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burlesque



Before Harry got there, I was thinking to myself, hold on, don't racing people talk about the 'going' being fast or slow, depending on the state of the ground? Here's the man:





If the going was good, it could be said to have been 'fast'. But Harry went on to say:



So while the going could still have been slow due to the most recent spell of bad weather, despite a dramatic improvement on the day, that would not be comparing the going with the same race - the Grand National - in previous years. I wonder how many of them had been blessed with drier weather and firmer ground in the days leading up to the big event. This was after all early Spring in Liverpool, not July in the south of France.



Hold your horses…

It doesn't matter whether Maybrick wrote the diary or not. According to Feldman, he and his wife attended every Grand National after marrying and settling in Liverpool. So when he attended the race in 1889, as we know he did, he would arguably only have been able to compare the going with other years he could remember well from earlier that decade. If the going in those years had looked relatively poor due to worse weather on the day, he might well have got an impression in the Spring sunshine of 1889 of a faster race, without caring or needing to know the actual comparative speed of the horses.





Except that the author only said it was the fastest Grand National "Sir Jim" had seen – not the fastest 'in history'; not the fastest 'in living memory'; not the fastest 'ever'. If he is meant to have had a reasonable view of the action each year, he would certainly have noticed when the horses were labouring through saturated grass and churned up mud, or thundering past him on turf that was springy and ground that was dry and firm. Isn't that much more likely to have been something the real James could have compared as a regular race goer, without having to know the ins and outs of a flea's bottom?

Ooh, that was rather timely, wasn't it? Grand National time is with us again - in more ways than one.

Have a great weekend all.

Love,

Caz
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Hi Caz,

I lost on the Grand National sweepstake!

Yes, I've just been looking at Harrison's book and the author of the diary writes: " ...true the race was the fastest I have seen..."

Interestingly, Frigate won that year. According to Harrison "That particular National, won by Frigate, was the fastest on record-information that has been confirmed after a great deal of probing in the race archives and local papers."

Well, actually, not enough "probing" it turns out, because it wasn't the fastest race on record as Frigate won in 10m 1.2 s, whereas several races had been won in under 10 minutes, i.e. The Lamb in 1871, 9m 35.7s.

Pity Wiki wasn't available when Shirley wrote her book! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...tional_winners

Fastest time ever? Mr Frisk, 1990, at an incredible 8m 47.8s.

Last edited by John G : 04-10-2017 at 12:19 PM.
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  #3272  
Old 04-10-2017, 12:32 PM
pinkmoon pinkmoon is offline
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Diary was written just before it was discovered of that I have absolutely no doubt .
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  #3273  
Old 04-11-2017, 12:11 AM
StevenOwl StevenOwl is online now
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Originally Posted by pinkmoon View Post
Diary was written just before it was discovered of that I have absolutely no doubt .
Yes, you keep saying that, and yet as far as I can see you've never produced a single shred of evidence to back it up.
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  #3274  
Old 04-11-2017, 03:12 AM
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caz caz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John G View Post
Hi Caz,

I lost on the Grand National sweepstake!

Yes, I've just been looking at Harrison's book and the author of the diary writes: " ...true the race was the fastest I have seen..."

Interestingly, Frigate won that year. According to Harrison "That particular National, won by Frigate, was the fastest on record-information that has been confirmed after a great deal of probing in the race archives and local papers."

Well, actually, not enough "probing" it turns out, because it wasn't the fastest race on record as Frigate won in 10m 1.2 s, whereas several races had been won in under 10 minutes, i.e. The Lamb in 1871, 9m 35.7s.

Pity Wiki wasn't available when Shirley wrote her book! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...tional_winners

Fastest time ever? Mr Frisk, 1990, at an incredible 8m 47.8s.
Hi John,

Thanks for that.

I won £5 off my other half! Mind you, we only sat down about an hour before the big race and our sweepstake consisted of dividing the 40 horses randomly between us and putting £25 each in the kitty, with the winner getting £20, runner up £15, third place £10 and fourth place £5. I had One for Arthur and Saint Are, and hubby had Cause of Causes and Blaklion.

Love,

Caz
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  #3275  
Old 04-11-2017, 03:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkmoon View Post
Diary was written just before it was discovered of that I have absolutely no doubt .
Hi pinky,

I wouldn't put money on it if I were you.

Love,

Caz
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  #3276  
Old 06-04-2017, 10:56 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Hi: newish member here. Briefly, been interested since '84/'85. Drifted away for the last 6 or 7 years but my interest has been reignited.

I have to say that you would have thought after 26 years that something, anything would have shown up on this well-to-do, well travelled, man-about-town businessman to 'categorically' disprove the diary. Someone on here implied that an accumulation of doubts is acceptable as proof of the fraudulence of the diary; it is not. One little note on the minutes of a meeting showing that Maybrick was in Sheffield at the time of one of the murders. Something in the diary, the equivalent of, Maybrick saying "I visited Thompson's Chemist in Walpole Street today," where it's found that there was no Walpole Street or chemist called Thompson. These would be proofs. But at the moment, 26 years later we still appear to have the same points against authenticity (I have to admit to not being very up to date here.)
- poste house .....he could have meant London
-tin match box,empty.....is it impossible to believe that 2 different people could use 4 words in the same order? (I thought that only conspiracy theorists didn't believe in coincidence)
-handwriting........does anyone know of any previous forgery that didn't attempt to copy the handwriting of the proposed suspect? Surely it's not totally beyond the realms of possibility that Maybrick, who otherwise saw himself as a gentleman, saw the ripper as his dark side; his Mr Hyde if you like.
-someone pointed out that the Grand National wasn't actually the fastest......surely Maybrick only said that it was the fastest that he'd seen?

I'm not saying that Maybrick was the Ripper or even that the diary is genuine but it appears, and it appeared so from the beginning, that some people are absolutely desperate for the diary to be a forgery. After 26 years of constant and rigorous analysis and research surely we could have expected one categorically disproving fact. Just one from this 'amateurish fake.'
And what kind of risk was the perpetrator of this 'amateurish fake' taking by selecting as his/her subject a well-to-do business man whose murder was the centre of one of the most famous trials of the century? Surely if someone wanted to simply make money from a 'diary of Jack the Ripper' they would have been infinately safer selecting some unknown market trader from Bethnal Green. Why choose a suspect who could conceivably have left a traceable trail throughout his life for detractors to choose from. Surely this could, only possibly, point to someone at the time who had a grudge against Maybrick? Couldn't it have been Maybrick's fantasy, written in a drug addled state, fuming about his 'whore of a wife.'
I believe that the Hitler Diary was disproved in less than a year? Melvyn Harris always threatened to expose the nest of forgers but never did. Even poor old Jeremy Beadle was mentioned as a suspect. Surely we can't believe that the late Mike Barrett really forged it? Did anyone ever meet him?
I titled this 'is this the longest thread ever?' partly because, well it is a very long thread but also because I would never have believed, 26 years ago, that the diary saga would still be ongoing and that those that disbelieved it would still appear so angry when people said ' well sorry but you haven't disproved it yet have you?'
I'm not on any side here. All that I'm saying is: Court circulars prove that Prince Eddy was away from London on the nights of (i believe) 2 of the murders. That.
categorically exonerates him. Neil Cream was in Joliet Prison at the time. That categorically exonerates him. But Maybrick and the diary? No, not yet.

Regards
HS

Last edited by Herlock Sholmes : 06-04-2017 at 11:01 AM. Reason: Typo
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  #3277  
Old 06-05-2017, 11:23 PM
Iconoclast Iconoclast is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Hi: newish member here. Briefly, been interested since '84/'85. Drifted away for the last 6 or 7 years but my interest has been reignited.

I have to say that you would have thought after 26 years that something, anything would have shown up on this well-to-do, well travelled, man-about-town businessman to 'categorically' disprove the diary.
Hi Newish Member,

Welcome to The Greatest Thread of All. Unlike your good self, Maybrick will never drift away because he cannot be categorically proven to not be Jack the Spratt McVitie. The argument resurfaces and the debate rages on afresh. In fairness, some have made well-considered submissions (in truth, we are all still recovering from the fearless rhetoric of He Who Is Never Wrong).

And we will never drift away - not finally, only ever briefly - because the case for Maybrick as Jack is at least as strong as for any other candidate and (very unusually in the rarified world of Ripperology) we actually have some evidence to work with here.

The initials on Mary Kelly's wall are the most compelling evidence of all. They are so utterly unlikely (if Maybrick were innocent) that detractors simply deny that they are there, failing as they do so to note that detractors far more published than they have already recorded versions of the image which show the two letters unequivocally (Sugden and Marriott are the two best examples of the trade).

Categorically disprove the letters on the wall, and the journal loses its most implausible element. Just say it's blood splatters (they are known for their naturally-articulate forms, you know). Or say it's just wishful thinking, like buses or Sir Winston Churchill or highlighter pens are. Or say that the journal makes no reference to them (be really really really really literal when you do so so that your argument sounds a tiny bit meaningful).

I was planning on a formal relaunch of the initials argument. It may yet happen ...

Until I do, Newish Member, I for one welcome your thoughts and thank you for your considered approach. Maybrick was Jack, I can categorically promise you that ...

Ike
An Honest Servant of Truth
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  #3278  
Old 06-06-2017, 02:16 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Hello Ike

Thanks for your reply. To be honest I expected someone to confront me with some absolute disproving fact of which I'd never heard.

I really never understood, from the start, why people were so aggressively anti-diary even at a time when they wouldn't have had time to research it. They screamed from day one. I don't consider myself an expert on anything. Like most I have a pretty decent knowledge of the Ripper murders based on quite a few years and even more books and nothing about the diary to me shouted 'forgery.' Then I read Feldman and could help thinking how skilfully this 'amateurish' forger had woven the Graham family details into the plot. Then he had, I assume, created the watch which, if I recall correctly, experts said was more than tens of years old.
Do I recall, in the Feldman book, Keith Skinner saying 'we can't shake it?"
Just one single categorically disproving fact is all that we need. Just one after 26 years. I'm still waiting....

Regards
HS
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  #3279  
Old 06-06-2017, 02:30 AM
Harry D Harry D is online now
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The diary never explicitly mentions "FM". "An initial here, an initial there" implies that the initials would be in different places, not right next to one another. Also, how is it the police missed this glaring clue while investigating the murder scene, particularly as they now believed the murderer was inclined to leave graffiti?

You asked why a forger would choose the diarist to be a victim from a famous murder case, and not some random nobody? I don't know. Perhaps for the same reason why the likes of Van Gogh, Prince Albert, Walter Sickert & Francis Thompson have been proposed as the killer down the years.
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  #3280  
Old 06-06-2017, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Do I recall, in the Feldman book, Keith Skinner saying 'we can't shake it?"
Hi HS,

I may be wrong but I thought it was Paul Begg who said that, along with the line about sitting on the fence so long he was developing piles.

Love,

Caz
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