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Can we profile the Ripper from the GSG?

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
    I didn't know until recently that some don't think that Eddowes was wearing an apron?
    Well, the marrying-up of the Goulston Street apron piece with "the remaining portion, which was still attached by the strings to the body" is on record (Dr Brown's inquest testimony, reported in the Daily Telegraph).
    Last edited by Sam Flynn; 08-15-2017, 02:38 AM.
    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
      I didn't know until recently that some don't think that Eddowes was wearing an apron?

      Well, when I say 'some' I think I mean just Trevor Marriott?
      Aside from Dr Brown, five other witnesses also gave evidence that she was wearing an apron that day.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
        That's a biggie. I'm sure that, if the killer had written the message, he'd have written a rather more punchy message .
        Remember Sam, he`d just been rummaging around inside Kate Eddowes tummy, and had the police on his tail, so he too may have later regretted his choice of words.

        in bigger letters,
        Writing in bigger letters may have exposed him to witnesses whilst writing it.
        As it is, crouched down in the dark, he was fairly safe, whereas putting a Banksy on the side of the house at the end of Goulston Street may have been too conspicuous.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post
          Writing in bigger letters may have exposed him to witnesses whilst writing it.
          I didn't mean BIG letters, just bigger ones; as opposed to small, rounded and neat.

          (I liked the Banksy reference, by the way )
          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
            Aside from Dr Brown, five other witnesses also gave evidence that she was wearing an apron that day.
            You would appear to be one who believes all that you read without question

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
              You would appear to be one who believes all that you read without question
              Not at all, Trevor. If that were true I'd believe every word you write.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                Not at all, Trevor. If that were true I'd believe every word you write.
                Well maybe you should start to believe what I write, because it makes a lot more sense than the statements you referred to in your original post which clearly do not stand up to close scrutiny, and the truthfulness and accuracy of those witness statements have never been tested until now

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                  I don't foresee this as a long thread but I thought that I'd try and get a few opinions. I imagine that if we took a poll asking if the GSG was written by Jack or not that the 'nots' would win? Possibly even by a significant margin. I've always leaned toward the opinion that it was. I'm a little like Cadosche though; just on the other side of the fence. So perhaps I should have called this thread 'can we profile the writer of the GSG?'

                  My point is one that I imagine has been made before, more than once, so apologies for going over old ground but hey, this is a forum about 1888 after all!

                  A thing that's always interested in me and I've wondered if it's at all suggestive is the fact that the writer managed to spell 'blamed' and 'nothing' correctly whilst mis-spelling the word 'Jews.' With the double negative hinting at a not-so-good grasp of basic grammar and the spelling of 'juwes' showing poor spelling the impression that we get is of someone of poor education. But if he could spell two tricky words correctly and yet get a simpler one wrong are we dealing with someone trying to downplay or hide his level of education? If so, then surely someone would only do that if they felt that their level of education was considerably above that of an average Whitechapel resident? The writing was also said to be in a good schoolboy hand hinting at decent penmanship.

                  So what can we deduce if anything?

                  Could the spelling of 'juwes' have been a deliberate insult. An example of 'I'm not even going to spell your name correctly.' Like someone talking to Nigel Farrage but pronouncing his surname to rhyme with marriage instead of barrage as an insult.

                  Was Jack a decently educated man who had come down in the world? Perhaps someone who blamed the Jews and prostitutes for the degraded area in which he was forced to live? Perhaps he felt that the Jews never received any blame for the 'harm' that they had caused? Perhaps the double negative is also mocking local speech and the locals poor education? So can we also see a man who sees himself as superior to those around him. Someone to whom fate has been cruel?

                  Someone who felt justified in taking revenge?
                  Hi, Herlock. I've always been of the opinion that the Graffito was not left by the killer. To date I haven't been exposed to any evidence or arguments that have dissuaded me from that opinion. Although, I'll happily reconsider if presented with something compelling.

                  I suppose my attitude toward the Graffito is informed by my overall ideas about the killer. That is to say, I've always viewed him as a killer. Not as a graffiti artist. Not as a letter writer. I am, like most, convinced that the apron was taken from Eddowes and that it was dropped in Goulston Street by her killer. I think there's firm enough evidence establishing that as a fact.

                  Having visited Goulston Street recently, I have developed a renewed interest in the placement of the apron, the "missing hour", and the Graffito. I'm one who tends to focus on fairly specific areas of interest and I'll spend years learning all I can. Goulston Street is not something I've researched in-depth. That's changing.

                  I'm very intrigued by the aforementioned "missing hour". IS there a "missing hour"? Did PC Long simply miss the apron as he passed through Goulston Street previously at around 2:20am? As well, Detective Halse stated that he didn't see the apron as he passed the spot upon which it was later found (also around 2:20am). Yet there it was there at 2:55am, a little more than an hour after Watkins found Eddowes body in Mitre Square. If Long and Halse are believed, where was that piece of apron between 1:45am and sometime after 2:20am on Sunday, September 30, 1888?

                  Having read about these events for more than thirty years and visiting the sites for the first time, I was struck by how close Goulston Street is to Mitre Square. A five minute walk without rushing. Obviously, we'd all like to know WHO had that piece of apron and where he might have been hiding? Was there a "bolt hole"? Some familiar spot? A friend's place? A relative's? Was there simply a dark corner, good enough to conceal a man and a portion of bloody apron for 35, 40 minutes? An hour?

                  I also find myself preoccupied with Goulston Street's seeming equidistance from Mitre Square, George Yard, and Miller's Court. All (it seemed) less than a thousand paces from where the apron was found.

                  Halse testified that "inquiry was made at every door of every tenement of the model dwelling-house, but we gained no tidings of anyone who was likely to have been the murderer". As best I can tell, however, the names (if they were recorded) are lost. Who lived at numbers 108 - 119 Wentworth Model Dwellings in late 1888? Can we learn those names? How? And, if we learned those names, where might that lead us?

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                  • #99
                    how far was goulston street from the Victoria house?

                    and where was the Victoria house location in regards to mitre square and goulston street?
                    "Is all that we see or seem
                    but a dream within a dream?"

                    -Edgar Allan Poe


                    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                    -Frederick G. Abberline

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Patrick S View Post
                      Hi, Herlock. I've always been of the opinion that the Graffito was not left by the killer. To date I haven't been exposed to any evidence or arguments that have dissuaded me from that opinion. Although, I'll happily reconsider if presented with something compelling.

                      I suppose my attitude toward the Graffito is informed by my overall ideas about the killer. That is to say, I've always viewed him as a killer. Not as a graffiti artist. Not as a letter writer. I am, like most, convinced that the apron was taken from Eddowes and that it was dropped in Goulston Street by her killer. I think there's firm enough evidence establishing that as a fact.

                      Having visited Goulston Street recently, I have developed a renewed interest in the placement of the apron, the "missing hour", and the Graffito. I'm one who tends to focus on fairly specific areas of interest and I'll spend years learning all I can. Goulston Street is not something I've researched in-depth. That's changing.

                      I'm very intrigued by the aforementioned "missing hour". IS there a "missing hour"? Did PC Long simply miss the apron as he passed through Goulston Street previously at around 2:20am? As well, Detective Halse stated that he didn't see the apron as he passed the spot upon which it was later found (also around 2:20am). Yet there it was there at 2:55am, a little more than an hour after Watkins found Eddowes body in Mitre Square. If Long and Halse are believed, where was that piece of apron between 1:45am and sometime after 2:20am on Sunday, September 30, 1888?

                      Having read about these events for more than thirty years and visiting the sites for the first time, I was struck by how close Goulston Street is to Mitre Square. A five minute walk without rushing. Obviously, we'd all like to know WHO had that piece of apron and where he might have been hiding? Was there a "bolt hole"? Some familiar spot? A friend's place? A relative's? Was there simply a dark corner, good enough to conceal a man and a portion of bloody apron for 35, 40 minutes? An hour?

                      I also find myself preoccupied with Goulston Street's seeming equidistance from Mitre Square, George Yard, and Miller's Court. All (it seemed) less than a thousand paces from where the apron was found.

                      Halse testified that "inquiry was made at every door of every tenement of the model dwelling-house, but we gained no tidings of anyone who was likely to have been the murderer". As best I can tell, however, the names (if they were recorded) are lost. Who lived at numbers 108 - 119 Wentworth Model Dwellings in late 1888? Can we learn those names? How? And, if we learned those names, where might that lead us?
                      Hi Patrick,

                      I'm definately not 'convinced' that Jack wrote the GSG but I've always been more in the 'did' than 'didnt' camp mainly because of the apron. I've never gone for the idea that Jack spent time cutting away a piece of cloth to wipe his knife because he could have wiped it in situ. So I've always thought that he probably took it to 'signpost' the graffito. After talking to Paul Begg, and others, on the JTR Forums recently he suggested that he could have taken it to clean up any blood that he'd missed if he needed to. This is a possibility but I still keep thinking 'if it was me I'd have taken a piece of rag with me for that purpose.' This could mean that the apron was discarded randomly next to an older graffito. Then again I thought, what if Jack wrote the GSG immediately after Berner Street, in anger at being disturbed by Diemschutz, then later decided to drop the rag there.
                      Then of course there's the 'missing hour.' If he went to some bolt hole then that suggests that he went back out with the cloth. I can think of no other reason but to place it near the graffito?
                      There's so much that we don't know that we end up 'filling the gaps.' Even with the message itself we can't come to a definitive interpretation (whoever wrote it.)
                      I know that, after his Bucks Row project, Steve is turning his sights on Mitre Square. An analysis of events at Goulston Street from you would be useful to all. It's always been an area of the murders that has interested me although I've never researched it. Thirty years on and I'm still none the wiser

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                        how far was goulston street from the Victoria house?
                        Almost literally just around the corner, Abby. The Google Maps snippet below will put it all into context.

                        Click image for larger version

Name:	Mitre to Victoria Home.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	127.5 KB
ID:	667105

                        The apron was dropped roughly where I've put the red "X"
                        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                          how far was goulston street from the Victoria house?

                          and where was the Victoria house location in regards to mitre square and goulston street?
                          If I'm correct Victoria Working Men's Home was at the corner of Wentworth and Commercial (?). If that's correct then in it's about 500 feet (as the crow flies) from Goulston Street and around 500 meters from Mitre Square. 450 feet from George Yard. 700 feet from Miller's Court. That's just a quick ballpark. Others likely have better measurements.

                          Comment


                          • Is that Pitt Cue place any good?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
                              Is that Pitt Cue place any good?
                              I've never been there, Scott. I've been to the "Happy Days" fish and chip restaurant many times, and it's great. It's not shown on the map, but it's located where the apron was found; I usually treat myself to a steak and kidney pie when I go there... can't think why.
                              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                                Almost literally just around the corner, Abby. The Google Maps snippet below will put it all into context.

                                [ATTACH]18234[/ATTACH]

                                The apron was dropped roughly where I've put the red "X"
                                Thanks Sam and Patrick!!
                                that's very interesting for any suspects that were staying there at the time. so goulston street is on the way directly there.

                                If Long missed it the first time around, then that would make sense for someone heading straight back to the Victoria house, and dropping it there on the way.

                                and if it wasn't there the first time around, the Victoria house is close enough that it would be easy to go there first, get cleaned up, drop stuff off and go out again literally around the corner to drop it..
                                Interesting.
                                "Is all that we see or seem
                                but a dream within a dream?"

                                -Edgar Allan Poe


                                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                                -Frederick G. Abberline

                                Comment

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