Double Event Timings etc...

[Geddy2112]

Sorry as this will have no doubt been discussed to death as it were.

Correct me if I'm wrong....

Dutfield's Yard discovery was timed at 1 am with the murderer nearly being caught in the act. So safe to say the murder happened around 1 am.

1.45 am Catherine Eddowes body was discovered in Mitre Square.

So basically we have 45 mins to get to Mitre Square from Berner St (maybe via Goulston St) and commit a horrific murder in 45 mins. Google plots the current fastest route between these points at approx 20 mins walking pace.

So bearing in mind all factors like running or avoiding detection, writing the GSG, (if you believe in that) being able to pick up a victim 'on-time' and mutilate Catherine in the dark, body being discovered as soon as possible after the event..... is it actually possible? Surely this means the second kill would have took only 15 mins tops maybe less.

Again apologies if this has been done to death I was just after some fresh opinions.

[Abby Normal]

Sorry as this will have no doubt been discussed to death as it were.

Correct me if I'm wrong....

Dutfield's Yard discovery was timed at 1 am with the murderer nearly being caught in the act. So safe to say the murder happened around 1 am.

1.45 am Catherine Eddowes body was discovered in Mitre Square.

So basically we have 45 mins to get to Mitre Square from Berner St (maybe via Goulston St) and commit a horrific murder in 45 mins. Google plots the current fastest route between these points at approx 20 mins walking pace.

So bearing in mind all factors like running or avoiding detection, writing the GSG, (if you believe in that) being able to pick up a victim 'on-time' and mutilate Catherine in the dark, body being discovered as soon as possible after the event..... is it actually possible? Surely this means the second kill would have took only 15 mins tops maybe less.

Again apologies if this has been done to death I was just after some fresh opinions.

Hi Geddy
yes this has been discussed a lot in the past and considered by the experts and the general consensus is that there was enough time.

but again, luck was on the rippers side because he would have to have found a willing victim very quickly once he got away from the dutfield yard murder scene-which he apparently did with Eddowes.

[jerryd]

Hi Geddy
yes this has been discussed a lot in the past and considered by the experts and the general consensus is that there was enough time.

but again, luck was on the rippers side because he would have to have found a willing victim very quickly once he got away from the dutfield yard murder scene-which he apparently did with Eddowes.

The question for me has always been with Stride being killed on Met territory, how quickly did word spread to the rest of H Division that there was a murder near 1:00 a.m in Dutfield's Yard? Were, for example, the H Division PC's working closest to Mitre Square (Long et al.) aware of the Stride murder by the time Eddowes was killed? Would that divert the attention away from a killer heading the opposite direction to the City? Or was another killer waiting in the City to strike when the H Division coppers were scrambling to Dutfields? Collusion, so to speak. Or was the killer in fact just lucky, as Abby has stated? I personally don't think this killer was as lucky as we believe.

[Rosella]

Personally, I think that Jack was an opportunist who headed up to Aldgate, with its pubs and some pedestrian traffic, after escaping Dutfield's Yard. He probably knew Whitechapel Road would have extra police on duty once news got out. Whether he was on his way home or fancied demolishing another victim undisturbed this time it's hard to say. I believe Jack had luck to spare in all his exploits, especially in meeting Eddowes.

Sugden has Inspector Reid being informed by telegram of Stride's death at Commercial Street police station at 1:25am Sunday morning. Chief Inspector West, Inspector Pinhorn and several sergeants and constables were already there at Dutfield's Yard when he arrived twenty minutes later. With that level of police activity after 1am you would think that news of the Stride murder would have spread via constables on the beat.

What were Outram, Halse and Marriott doing searching houses in the neighbourhood at the time of the Mitre Square murder? Had they been informed unofficially about Stride?

[Robert St Devil]

but again, luck was on the rippers side because he would have to have found a willing victim very quickly once he got away from the dutfield yard murder scene-which he apparently did with Eddowes.

Not overlooking what Catherine represents to Jack the Ripper...

a prostitute (supposedly) who conveniently enough knows the darkest corner in Aldgate [albeit the perfect location for her murder too!] in addition to remembering the beat of the Mitre Square constable 3 months after returning from hop-picking

Would you be willing to listen to an alternative? Do you remember how, after Polly Nicholls was attacked, another woman reports being assaulted into a dark location? It could be that's what Catherine is... a woman who had the true misfortune of being released at 1 o'clock, is on the London streets at an unfortunate hour, alone, and ends up getting jacked


Taken from the viewpoint of Jack the Ripper...

wouldn't you think 'that' would be important? The timing of the constable's beat. If he's allotted himself so much time to actually commit the murder [and, he should well know his ultimate motive which can be found in the condition of Catherine's corpse!]... if he's allotted this time, he would need to know when the constable will be thru Mitre Square again.

-- A Post Modern Story --

Jack the Ripper has chosen Mitre Square prior to the murder for its locale, but he needs to know the constable's beat. So, he posts up near the Square until he learns PC Watkin's routine; it not mattering now if the constable is working left handed since his time thru Mitre Square will never change because the constable never alters his path.

Meaning, Jack the Ripper may have been near Mitre Square at 12:45a, 11:45p, or 10:45p, or 9:45a.

He would also need to know the span of time he has. Was it a half-hour beat? So, he's also near Mitre Square at 12:15a, 11:15p, or 10:15p.

However...

If he's the man who murders Elizabeth, it can't be 12:45a.
And if he's the man entertaining her earlier, it can't be 10:45p.

Which either means, he leaves Elizabeth after 11p, and walks the 15 minutes to Mitre Square to see PC Watkins pass thru Mitre Square at 11:15p or 11:45p, or he knows for certain from some other timing point of the constable's

So he knows he has between 1:15a to 1:45a to commit his murder.

Which mean... if he is in fact Elizabeth's killer, the absolute latest that he can remain on Berner St. is 1:00a, Diemschitz or no Diemschitz.


HERE COME THE MAYBE'S:
But, he would also need to learn the Berner St beat [when will the constable pass Dutfield Yard since that would be chosen too]. And maybe that's what all the wandering up and around with her is about. Or maybe that's what Schwartz' second man's job is - to keep her on Berner St. until he returns and also explaining the different clothes and hats of the gentleman she is seen attending. Maybe he's the guy who changes into the white overalls on his return. Maybe he knows that he has from 12:45a until 1:00a to murder Elizabeth in Dutfield Yard.

However, he has not counted on one thing. Now, maybe he is spooked by Diemschitz at 1a. Or, maybe Schwartz spooks him and he delays the murder until 'the coast is clear'. Or maybe, Elizabeth doesn't die that fast or she bleeds too much. Or maybe the one thing the he didn't count on was the front door of the club being locked, and now everyone is using the side-door to leave the meeting.

Of course, this would rely on somehow arranging to have Elizabeth standing near Dutfield Yard at 12:45a... which seems like another convenient place for her to be found at the time of her attack, it being an albeit somewhat populated street and all.

Jack the Ripper intends on murdering two women that nite. It takes some planning but in order to perform this feat, he needs two things:

1. The shadow of night
2. An hour when more women may be found alone on the street.

He can't wait any longer than an hour because he is about to put London on alert again with Elizabth's murder. By 2:45a, PC Watkins may have heard the news and be extra diligent at his duties. Does he choose two jurisdictions for this reason? Good question!

- - - - - - - - - - - -

I have to look into this one: was a bonnet-less Catherine found with a bonnet?

[curious4]

A bonnet was found beside Kate's body, one is listed as among her clothes and Lawende mentions that the woman he saw was wearing a bonnet.

Best wishes
C4

[Wickerman]

Women wearing a bonnet, especially at night was the norm. Women without headgear were the exception, especially the younger ones in their 20's. It was a sign of a loose woman.

[c.d.]

I have never been convinced that Kate met her killer completely by chance. Where did she get the money for her drinks that evening? I think they could have come from her killer and she went back looking for him after her release from jail.

c.d.

[jerryd]

Not overlooking what Catherine represents to Jack the Ripper...

a prostitute (supposedly) who conveniently enough knows the darkest corner in Aldgate [albeit the perfect location for her murder too!] in addition to remembering the beat of the Mitre Square constable 3 months after returning from hop-picking

Would you be willing to listen to an alternative? Do you remember how, after Polly Nicholls was attacked, another woman reports being assaulted into a dark location? It could be that's what Catherine is... a woman who had the true misfortune of being released at 1 o'clock, is on the London streets at an unfortunate hour, alone, and ends up getting jacked


Taken from the viewpoint of Jack the Ripper...

wouldn't you think 'that' would be important? The timing of the constable's beat. If he's allotted himself so much time to actually commit the murder [and, he should well know his ultimate motive which can be found in the condition of Catherine's corpse!]... if he's allotted this time, he would need to know when the constable will be thru Mitre Square again.

-- A Post Modern Story --

Jack the Ripper has chosen Mitre Square prior to the murder for its locale, but he needs to know the constable's beat. So, he posts up near the Square until he learns PC Watkin's routine; it not mattering now if the constable is working left handed since his time thru Mitre Square will never change because the constable never alters his path.

Meaning, Jack the Ripper may have been near Mitre Square at 12:45a, 11:45p, or 10:45p, or 9:45a.

He would also need to know the span of time he has. Was it a half-hour beat? So, he's also near Mitre Square at 12:15a, 11:15p, or 10:15p.

However...

If he's the man who murders Elizabeth, it can't be 12:45a.
And if he's the man entertaining her earlier, it can't be 10:45p.

Which either means, he leaves Elizabeth after 11p, and walks the 15 minutes to Mitre Square to see PC Watkins pass thru Mitre Square at 11:15p or 11:45p, or he knows for certain from some other timing point of the constable's

So he knows he has between 1:15a to 1:45a to commit his murder.

Which mean... if he is in fact Elizabeth's killer, the absolute latest that he can remain on Berner St. is 1:00a, Diemschitz or no Diemschitz.


HERE COME THE MAYBE'S:
But, he would also need to learn the Berner St beat [when will the constable pass Dutfield Yard since that would be chosen too]. And maybe that's what all the wandering up and around with her is about. Or maybe that's what Schwartz' second man's job is - to keep her on Berner St. until he returns and also explaining the different clothes and hats of the gentleman she is seen attending. Maybe he's the guy who changes into the white overalls on his return. Maybe he knows that he has from 12:45a until 1:00a to murder Elizabeth in Dutfield Yard.

However, he has not counted on one thing. Now, maybe he is spooked by Diemschitz at 1a. Or, maybe Schwartz spooks him and he delays the murder until 'the coast is clear'. Or maybe, Elizabeth doesn't die that fast or she bleeds too much. Or maybe the one thing the he didn't count on was the front door of the club being locked, and now everyone is using the side-door to leave the meeting.

Of course, this would rely on somehow arranging to have Elizabeth standing near Dutfield Yard at 12:45a... which seems like another convenient place for her to be found at the time of her attack, it being an albeit somewhat populated street and all.

Jack the Ripper intends on murdering two women that nite. It takes some planning but in order to perform this feat, he needs two things:

1. The shadow of night
2. An hour when more women may be found alone on the street.

He can't wait any longer than an hour because he is about to put London on alert again with Elizabth's murder. By 2:45a, PC Watkins may have heard the news and be extra diligent at his duties. Does he choose two jurisdictions for this reason? Good question!

- - - - - - - - - - - -

I have to look into this one: was a bonnet-less Catherine found with a bonnet?

Very Good post, Robert,

Keep in mind too, if Kate was an intended victim (as some theories profess), the killer would need to know precisely when she was to be released from jail and that she was heading to Mitre Square, which was in the opposite direction of heading home. In other words, the killer strikes down Stride and intends to have Eddowes next. How did he know she was in jail and if he did know, how did he know when she would be released?

Does this point to a killer "in the know" of those facts, or pure luck that he ran into Eddowes after her release? If he was timing the City police beats for the purpose of killing in a small window of time, was Kate the first and only opportunity? Are you with me?

[RockySullivan]

What about the theory that Kate was meeting someone? I know it seems likely because it opens up the possibility that she could divulge the name of the person's she's meeting so the ripper is taking a risk. Also she was drunk and locked up so it would be hard for her to keep her appointment

[Geddy2112]

Some excellent points.

Due to the timing aspect and the amount of things that would have had to happen in a certain order I think the odds of Jack committing both murders so close together (time wise) is highly unlikely... for me anyway.

[Robert St Devil]

On the evening of 30sep88, Jack the Ripper is motivated by:

A) Luck
B) Risk

A) If he is motivated by Luck, then, yes, Catherine is prostituting herself. Motivated by Luck means... Jack the Ripper allows the women to lead him into Dutfield Yard and Mitre Square. He has baited Elizabeth and Catherine with their own trap (ie. their trade spot).

B) Motivated by Risk means... Jack the Ripper baits & traps Catherine and Elizabeth by leading them into DYd and MSq.

I do not believe that Jack the Ripper wanted to get caught by a constable. Not in a physical way even if he waxed on in metaphysical ways of "truly wanting to be caught." I think he shows some effort to evade the law.
And, I also tend to believe that he had a sense of self regarding his serial brand of murder. I don't believe that he referenced Gray's Anatomy while butchering Catherine. He must have had an idea of what he was doing & how long he would need in order to murder her in the way that he did from some type of experience.

A) If Catherine leads Jack the Ripper into Mitre Square, then he could be hoping that the constable will not be around for the x amount of minutes that he knows he will need to murder her and remove her kidney. It would mean that if he starts at some random time... say, 1:40a, then he's hoping that Luck will be on his side, and the PC won't be rounding the corner anytime soon. He would not be in complete control of time because he would relying on Catherine to lead him to Mitre Square first.

B) If Jack the Ripper leads Catherine into Mitre Square, then he could be chancing the constable might have changed his routine, which was established when the constable began walking his beat. He could control the time of the murder.

- - - - - - -

From a military perspective, it seems like the constables were 'pulling guard duty'... walking back & forth. I wonder if they created a void that Jack the Ripper could slip-thru when the constables closest to the murder are pulled to the site.

[Elamarna]

Two very good posts Robert, a few ideas to really think about.

A couple of points, if he really is organised, he could have checked out the beats at Mitre square on any night, it need not be done the night of the murder.

If he was working to the police beats, he also had to know the timings for Harvey as well as Watkins.

Steve

[Robert St Devil]

Two very good posts Robert, a few ideas to really think about.

A couple of points, if he really is organised, he could have checked out the beats at Mitre square on any night, it need not be done the night of the murder.

If he was working to the police beats, he also had to know the timings for Harvey as well as Watkins.

Steve

Great to talk with you again, Steve. I considered your first point. It was the aspect of the PC walking left handed instead of his regular beat that made me consider Jack the Ripper observing PC Watkins that very nite.

[Elamarna]

Great to talk with you again, Steve. I considered your first point. It was the aspect of the PC walking left handed instead of his regular beat that made me consider Jack the Ripper observing PC Watkins that very nite.

Hi Robert

Would he have known that in advance?
an awareness of reversing the beat sometimes would suggest someone who knew more about the beats than would be normally expected.

steve