Abberline's Reason

[mklhawley]

Greetings all,

As we know, Abberline's choice of the ripper was Chapman, but it's interesting to see why he suspected him. It was because of the American medical student needing uterus specimens/pathological museum theory from Dr. Phillips:

While the coroner was investigating one of the Whitechapel murders he told the jury a very queer story. You will remember that Dr. Phillips, the divisional surgeon, who made the post-mortem examination, not only spoke of the skillfulness with which the knife had been used, but stated that there was overwhelming evidence to show that the criminal had so mutilated the body that he could possess himself of one of the organs. The coroner, in commenting on this, said that he had been told by the sub-curator of the pathological museum connected with one of the great medical schools that some few months before an American had called upon him and asked him to procure a number of specimens. He stated his willingness to give £20 for each. Although the strange visitor was told that his wish was impossible of fulfillment, he still urged his request. It was known that the request was repeated at another institution of a similar character in London. The coroner at the time said: 'Is it not possible that a knowledge of this demand may have inspired some abandoned wretch to possess himself of the specimens? It seems beyond belief that such inhuman wickedness could enter into the mind of any man; but, unfortunately, our criminal annals prove that every crime is possible!'

'It is a remarkable thing," Mr. Abberline pointed out, "that after the Whitechapel horrors America should have been the place where a similar kind of murder began, as though the miscreant had not fully supplied the demand of the American agent. Pall Mall Gazette, 24 March 1903

But of course, ripperologists have rejected this story because of the revelation that it was actually a Philadelphia gynecologist. So, why would Abberline not have rejected this story when he was in the center of the investigation? Did Abberline not get the memo?

Any thoughts?

Sincerely,

Mike

[Heinrich]

That a few women were ripped to pieces because an American wanted anatomical specimens is a ludicrous theory and it tells us a lot about Abberline's denseness that he could have entertained it.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Or perhaps Abberline had a mischievous sense of humour.

Regards,

Simon

[DVV]

Hi Heinrich, basically agreed.
Much worse is the fact that Abberline didn't believe the Ripper could be an unknown local, dosser, petty thief, etc.
He was sent back to Whitechapel due to his knowledge of local people and criminals, and since his investigations led nowhere, he came, in my opinion, to the disastrous conclusion that the Ripper wasn't to be found in a doss house (see his 1892 comments).

Abberline was replaced in 1889 by Moore, whose views were completely different, and this can hardly be by accident.

[mklhawley]

So, are we to say that Scotland Yard was so convinced that Abberline was dense that they decided to place him with the most important murder investigation?

[jason_c]

So, are we to say that Scotland Yard was so convinced that Abberline was dense that they decided to place him with the most important murder investigation?

Bureaucracies have been known for there fair share of in-fighting and personality clashes.

[mklhawley]

Which must have been the same reason why he was promoted to chief inspector in 1890.

[mklhawley]

So, here's a man (Abberline) who was directed to take charge of the Whitechapel murder investigation, made it up through the ranks to chief inspector, and was hired by William Pinkerton for his detective skills, and all we can say is these same detective skills are so bad that he was considered dense? ...just because he took seriously a theory proposed by Dr. Phillips, an intelligent man by all accounts?

Him being dense seems not to conform to the evidence.

It is more logical to assume that this man was privy not only to the Philadelphia gynecologist explanation but also to the source of this explanation, yet by 1903 this explanation didn't mean much. I would accept that his memory was fading more that he was a dense man. Or could it be that people are rejecting his opinion because he rejected Anderson's?

Sincerely,

Mike

[Bridewell]

As this is a hearsay account in a newspaper I'm reluctant to read too much into it.

I'm a little surprised that you think it "tells a lot about Abberline's denseness", Heinrich, as it's not only hearsay but - a favourite word - 'uncorroborated' as well!

[bolo]

Hi Mike, all,

I'm not convinced that Abberline really bought the organ trade story. In my opinion, he was more interested in a possible American connection.

Let's not forget that we're talking about a press interview, published 15 years after the events. The Pall Mall Gazette was not one of the gutter papers but they knew as good as them how to keep circulation high.

Regards,

Boris

[mklhawley]

Hi Mike, all,

I'm not convinced that Abberline really bought the organ trade story. In my opinion, he was more interested in a possible American connection.

Let's not forget that we're talking about a press interview, published 15 years after the events. The Pall Mall Gazette was not one of the gutter papers but they knew as good as them how to keep circulation high.

Regards,

Boris

Interesting point Boris. It may have been Abberline's words, but it's the paper's choice of what gets emphasized, added, or deleted.

Mike

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

it's interesting to see why he suspected him. It was because of the American medical student needing uterus specimens/pathological museum theory from Dr. Phillips:…

...just because he took seriously a theory proposed by Dr. Phillips, an intelligent man by all accounts?

Dr. Phillips did not propose this theory. Dr. Phillips stated at the Chapman inquest that he believed that “The whole inference [derived from the extensive mutilations to the body] seems to me that the operation was performed to enable the perpetrator to obtain possession of these parts of the body.” i.e. that the killer had mutilated the body specifically in order to take possession of the uterus. He obviously didn’t have any experience with sexual mutilation murders in which trophies are taken.

It was the Coroner, Wynne Baxter, who stated that he had been contacted by “an officer of one of our great medical schools” and that some months earlier an American had been asking to purchase uteri for £20 each because he wanted to “issue an actual specimen with each copy of a publication on which he was then engaged.” Baxter did not suggest that the American doctor was the killer, instead he wondered “Now, is it not possible that the knowledge of this demand may have incited some abandoned wretch to possess himself of a specimen.” Therefore, the Coroner’s theory was that the murders might have been committed for profit and that the killer might be someone who was trying to cash in on the offer of £20 an organ.

It was quickly shown that Baxter had got the information all wrong. The American doctor was “a physician of the highest respectability and exceedingly well accredited to this country by the best authorities in his own…;” that he wanted some specimens for “scientific investigation” and not to offer actual samples to go along with a book and, therefore, he didn’t ask for a large or steady supply of uteri to be sent to America; that he hadn’t mentioned any sum of money for this, let alone £20 each; that the American doctor had left London a year and a half before the murders had even started; that the story told to Baxter “was due to the erroneous interpretation by a minor official of a question which he had overheard, and to which a negative reply was given.” i.e. the source was mistaken and that even Baxter quickly changed his mind about the whole thing.

But of course, ripperologists have rejected this story because of the revelation that it was actually a Philadelphia gynecologist. So, why would Abberline not have rejected this story when he was in the center of the investigation? Did Abberline not get the memo?

The story should be rejected because it is not based on the truth. Abberline was obviously unaware of the actual facts behind Baxter’s theory, which appeared in the British Medical Journal (something Abberline wouldn’t be reading), and it’s not as if the police took very great notice of the theory anyway.

Wolf.

[mklhawley]

Wolf,

Excellent details. My take on it is he's recalling these events years later and his memory of the details have been affected. If he made this conclusion near the time of this article, then I agree with you, but if he made the conclusion at the time of the murders, then focusing upon his errors might be a mistake. Instead of seeing a flawed argument in the article, we are seeing the affects of time and age.

Regardless, it is still very intriguing that Abberline, of all people, has made this conclusion.

Mike

[Hunter]

I agree with you, Wolf.

Actually, at the Chapman inquest, Mr. Phillips only said that some anatomical knowledge was apparent. It was Baxter who expounded upon it and added great skill and expertise to the murderer. Phillips was asked about Baxter's theory by a Press Association reporter at the conclusion of the inquest on Sept. 26. Phillips was reported to have said that "he considered it a very important communication," and that “He attached great importance to the applications which had been made to the pathological museums, and to the advisability of following this information up, as a probable clue.”

But Phillips had just arrived from Durham and was too late to hear Baxter's summary, which was concluding when Phillips arrived at the Working Lads' Institute. He was relying on what the reporter told him and thought it was a good opportunity to vindicate "his reason for not wishing in the first place to give a description of the injuries.” Of course, Baxter thought that getting all of the information finally out of Phillips had resulted in his 'new evidence.'

The Daily Telegraph said this on Sept. 28, “Although many hospital authorities do not attach very great importance to the story, the police have given due attention to the matter. In their view, however, it does not provide a clue which will facilitate the identification of the murderer,”

Outside of the 3 so-called insane medical students, whose antecedents were being traced at that time, all of the other police suspects would not have met Baxter's criteria... And even with these students, it seems that it was the Home Office that was more interested in them than anyone else.

More likely, Abberline re-entertained Baxter's theory after the news about Chapman was known to him. He certainly would have remembered it. It caused quite a stir at the time. Whether he actually believed it at the time may be a different story. Baxter had raked the police over the coals during the Chapman inquest and tensions were strained in every quarter.

[mklhawley]

More likely, Abberline re-entertained Baxter's theory after the news about Chapman was known to him. He certainly would have remembered it. It caused quite a stir at the time. Whether he actually believed it at the time may be a different story. Baxter had raked the police over the coals during the Chapman inquest and tensions were strained in every quarter.

Very intriguing Hunter.

Mike