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  #2891  
Old 04-21-2015, 12:01 AM
Spitfire Spitfire is offline
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Originally Posted by Derrick View Post

At the trial, Acott said that Hanratty had first mentioned the 3 men in Liverpool on the 7th. Acott said that to make it look like Hanratty was only going to Liverpool to establish an alibi for the whole of the murder period.
I thought that was why he went to Liverpool in October. His eventual alibi was that he was in Liverpool until late afternoon then got the 6.00pm bus arriving in Rhyl at 8.19 pm and ended up in some guesthouse accommodation in the late evening. This was not good enough for Jim who went to Liverpool to establish an alibi based on him being in Liverpool for the whole of the evening of 22 August 1961.
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  #2892  
Old 04-21-2015, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Natalie Severn View Post
A man in left luggage said he remembered him which is a bit different from a casual passer by.
What a pity Hanratty didn't think to ask directions from the left luggage man. If he really had remembered the right man, and on the right date, it would have helped enormously if he'd been able to say that the same man had asked him about a Talbot or Carlton Road!

As I've said on many an occasion, if it hadn't been for bad luck, Hanratty would have had no luck at all. Everything and everyone, not least himself, seemed to conspire against him.

Love,

Caz
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  #2893  
Old 04-21-2015, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Derrick View Post
First of all you have looked at a map and found a Tarleton Street. But Hanratty asked for, perhaps, Carlton or Talbot or Tarleton Road or a combination of them.
But as Nats said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natalie Severn View Post
He makes no mention of any Tarleton Road but rather refers to "Talbot or Carlton' Road-see attached below.
And herein lies the difficulty. Didn't Mrs D in the sweet shop remember someone asking for Tarleton Street (or Road), whereupon she directed him back towards the city centre? It does make me wonder if Hanratty could have made use of a crony with similar looks who had actually asked for Tarleton Street in the shop.

Again, it was bad luck if the crony got the day wrong and it happened on the Monday; bad luck he had a heavy Scots or Welsh accent, not a cockney one; bad luck Hanratty misheard or misremembered the street name and was forced to improvise.

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Caz
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  #2894  
Old 04-21-2015, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Natalie Severn View Post
Following on from Derrick's point ,it may be interesting too to people to check out Carlton Street in Liverpool by googling it as this is close to what Hanratty remembers in sounds --- " Carlton" with its first consonant of 'C ' followed by the same sound order he remembered . On 21/12/ 1961 Hanratty told Joe Gillbanks that Aspinall was a "market trader '. Joe Gillbanks was the ex-policeman employed by Michael Sherrard to carry out further investigations for him . When you google Carton Street in Liverpool [there is no Carton Road] you see a road of mixed dwellings and storage warehouses--just the job for a market trader and a fence I would have thought.
So surely, surely, Gillbanks should have been able to establish that this Aspinall chap existed (perhaps under a different name) and did indeed live in one of a very limited number of roads or streets named Carlton, Talbot or Tarleton, even if he got no joy from Aspinall himself. That much would have been a start. But the fact that you 'would have thought' Carlton Street would have fit the bill for a market trader and fence strongly implies Aspinall was never tracked down to one of these similar sounding addresses. How hard could it have been, unless Hanratty was telling yet more porkies?

Love,

Caz
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  #2895  
Old 04-21-2015, 02:09 AM
NickB NickB is offline
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“In prison he’d given me his address as Talbot or Carlton Road.”

This ties in with the Appeal (section 54) which says Kleinman submitted a written statement that the road names Hanratty said he asked for were Carlton and Talbot.

However Mrs D always said that the visitor asked only for Tarleton Road. Hanratty seems to have picked this up and later added ‘Tarleton’ to the road names he said he had been looking for.

Over the years the myth has grown that the road names in both accounts were identical. In 2002 Foot claimed:
Hanratty said he asked for: “Tarleton or Carlton Road”
Mrs D said her visitor asked for: “Tarleton or Carlton Road”

Last edited by NickB : 04-21-2015 at 02:13 AM.
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  #2896  
Old 04-21-2015, 02:40 AM
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Why would France,a man he didnt know,go and see Ewer to say how sorry he was for Gregstens death.Apparently France had to be consoled by Ewer as he was so agitated ,and this, several months after the murder,very odd! Ewer actually admitted saying to France "justice has been done,YOU HAVE NOTHING TO REPROACH YOURSELF FOR" what was he reproaching himself about?( I actually added in pencil at the bottom of page 383."How would Ewer know France had anything to reproach himself for?) very strange! Obviously these two people knew each other,yet, Ewer said he had only met France that one time.
Well clearly, moste, Ewer is claiming to believe Hanratty alone was responsible for the A6 murder and rape ("justice has been done") and is therefore saying that France has nothing to reproach himself for. At worst, France may have unwittingly supplied Hanratty with the murder weapon and be feeling terrible about that. At best, he may be beating himself up for telling the police about Hanratty's hiding place on the bus. In between those two extremes, France may have advised Hanratty shortly after the event to go north sharpish and get himself a decent alibi. How much help and its exact nature would affect how badly France was reproaching himself. If he didn't know or suspect what Hanratty had been up to at that point, he soon found out why the police were after him. How much of a shock that was is anyone's guess.

Love,

Caz
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  #2897  
Old 04-21-2015, 05:09 AM
Natalie Severn Natalie Severn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickB View Post
“In prison he’d given me his address as Talbot or Carlton Road.”

This ties in with the Appeal (section 54) which says Kleinman submitted a written statement that the road names Hanratty said he asked for were Carlton and Talbot.

However Mrs D always said that the visitor asked only for Tarleton Road. Hanratty seems to have picked this up and later added ‘Tarleton’ to the road names he said he had been looking for.

Over the years the myth has grown that the road names in both accounts were identical. In 2002 Foot claimed:
Hanratty said he asked for: “Tarleton or Carlton Road”
Mrs D said her visitor asked for: “Tarleton or Carlton Road”
Nick ,this answers the confusion over the names of the road he was looking for. Mrs Dunwoody appears to have had difficulty hearing what Hanratty was saying- did she perhaps in her late 60's need a hearing aid?But she certainly recognised Hanratty in court as being the same that she had been into her sweetshop.It may be worth noting here that Mrs Dunwoody never wavered that the man she saw in court was the man she had seen in her sweetshop between 4 and 5pm on 21st or 22nd---she gave two dates remember -her first being 22nd. However she did explain she had difficulty understanding his accent.Maybe other scousers did too when he had asked directions outside Limestreet Station? In her case it was probably unfamiliarity with his accent and a mild ,age related ,hearing problem

Caz, I doubt I myself would ask directions inside a train station at a left luggage office.I would prefer to ask directions out on the street so people could point me in the direction needed.
Regarding Aspinall. I don't think Gillbanks ever looked him up as the men he was keen to track down were those three hanratty originally said he stayed with . All were in the business of 'fencing' or they were wanted for trouble with police ranging from non-payment of fines to having flats that were full up with jewellery and not a single one of them wanted anything to do with a Capital murder trial.They nearly all gave false names too .Gillbanks interviewed only Terence McNally and one other ,a Frances Healey . When he interviewed Terence McNally whose home was searched by police on the night of Hanratty's arrest McNally said yes he knew Hanratty but he then refused to be drawn further telling Gillbanks ' if Hanratty is not willing to open up,why should I'. Hanratty was beaten up in Liverpool on his earlier visit there in July and was hospitalised and appears to have been frightened by some of these Liverpool guys who had threatened him not to involve them in any murder trial.

Last edited by Natalie Severn : 04-21-2015 at 05:14 AM.
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  #2898  
Old 04-21-2015, 07:29 AM
Derrick Derrick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natalie Severn View Post
...He makes no mention of any Tarleton Road but rather refers to "Talbot or Carlton' Road...
He did at the trial on 7th February when giving his evidence in chief.

He mentioned asking for directions to Carlton Road or Tarleton Road.
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  #2899  
Old 04-21-2015, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Natalie Severn View Post
Caz, I doubt I myself would ask directions inside a train station at a left luggage office.I would prefer to ask directions out on the street so people could point me in the direction needed.
Really? I'd have thought someone actually working in the station would have been a better bet for local street knowledge than anyone on the street, many of whom would have come from outside the city centre to shop or sightsee.

Quote:
Regarding Aspinall. I don't think Gillbanks ever looked him up as the men he was keen to track down were those three hanratty originally said he stayed with . All were in the business of 'fencing' or they were wanted for trouble with police ranging from non-payment of fines to having flats that were full up with jewellery and not a single one of them wanted anything to do with a Capital murder trial.
I find that troublesome to be frank, seeing as Gillbanks was armed with very few possible Carltons, Talbots or Tarletons to check out, and confirmation of Aspinall's address would have backed up the sweet shop claim. Gillbanks may have been 'keen' to track down the other three first, but surely when it became clear they were no help at all, he would have looked for Aspinall as the next best bet. The only reason I can see for no feedback is that Gillbanks did look him up but drew a big fat blank - or even found 'the' Aspinall lived somewhere else entirely. There would not have been much point in Aspinall giving Hanratty his address if he was only known there by a different name.

Love,

Caz
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Last edited by caz : 04-21-2015 at 08:38 AM.
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  #2900  
Old 04-21-2015, 09:12 AM
Natalie Severn Natalie Severn is offline
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[quote=caz;337713]

Really? I'd have thought someone actually working in the station would have been a better bet for local street knowledge than anyone on the street, many of whom would have come from outside the city centre to shop or sightsee.

Really do disagree Caz. Most people on the street outside Lime Street Station would be heading for the centre from places like Scotland Road and its environs-as many still do today .Liverpool in 1961 was smaller and more local than now .Besides after a train arrives left luggage offices can be quite busy and are not the usual places one would ask directions.

Last edited by Natalie Severn : 04-21-2015 at 09:14 AM.
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