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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #1  
Old 01-09-2017, 08:05 PM
Mary_Jane_Kelly Mary_Jane_Kelly is offline
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Default Any info on these women please?

Julia Venturney, lived at 1 Miller's Court (was this the same Julia who Mary let stay in her room before Mrs. Harvey?)

Maria Harvey, she stayed with Mary on November 5 and 6 then moved to another alley off Dorset Street. (Is this the Mrs. Harvey that Mary let live with her and caused Joe to leave her?)

Lizzie Albrook

Elizabeth Foster (seen drinking with Mary at the Ten Bells Pub).

Mary Ann Cox, lived at 5 Miller's Court.

Elizabeth Prater (lived in the room above Mary).


Any info on these women would be much appreciated, especially the Julia & Mrs. Harvey who stayed with Mary.
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  #2  
Old 01-09-2017, 09:24 PM
MysterySinger MysterySinger is offline
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There's plenty of info on Julia Venturney. She was around Millers Court for quite some time. She was born in 1840 and her parents were Richard and Charlotte Cooke. She "married " Anthony Ventorini and they had at least 2 children, Rosina 1864-1903 and Charlotte 1868 - 1885. Julia split from Ventorini and later took up with Henry Owen and was known as Lottie Owen. Both lived in Millers Court, and at one time actually in Mary's old room. They lived at 26 Dorset Street in the 1891 census. She can be found in census returns (eg I have her in 1851, 61, 71, 81, 91 and 1911 for sure). The Ventorini surname, though, can be found in several guises such as Ventreney, Montreney etc. Lottie Owen is much simpler (Lottie derived from Charlotte her mothers name). Julia was born 11th March 1840 and died 1st Feb 1914. This is some of the info I've found on her.
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Old 01-09-2017, 10:08 PM
Mary_Jane_Kelly Mary_Jane_Kelly is offline
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Very interesting, I wonder if thats the same Lottie who was living in Mary's old room who was interviewed about Kitty Ronan's murder in millers court some years later (around 1909)?


An excerpt from the Interview done by Kathleen 'Kit' Blake Watkins.

"Millers Court was reached by a narrow passage under an arch reeking with fifth and crowded with women and children. Still residing there was Elizabeth Prater, who lived above Mary Kelly on the night of her murder, but was now living opposite. Elizabeth took Kit across the court to meet the current occupant of Mary Kelly's still blood stained room of number 13, a lady who went by the name of "Lottie". "I was her friend" said Lottie, speaking with difficulty because of a broken and battered nose given to her by a kick from her husband's heavy boot. "I was living further up the court then. She (Mary Kelly) says `I'm afraid to go out alone at night because of a dream I had that a man was murdering me. Maybe I'll be next. They say Jack's been busy in this quarter'. She said it with such a laugh ma'am that it just made me creep. And been sure enough ma'am she was the next to go. I heard her through the night singin' - she had a nice voice - "The violets grow on your mothers grave" - but that's all we 'urd". Lottie seemed to have no repugnance in sleeping in the room with its now blood blackened walls."
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Old 01-10-2017, 12:53 AM
m_w_r m_w_r is offline
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Hi MysterySinger,

That's great research. You should consider updating the Casebook Wiki with this information. Super stuff!

Regards,

Mark
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  #5  
Old 01-10-2017, 04:35 AM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Hi,
This is very good research we now know who Lottie was [ ?]..Julia one of Kelly's friends,
Regards Richard.
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  #6  
Old 01-10-2017, 06:45 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Good work MysterySinger.
Ca you clear up one thing about Julia; was she a German, as reported by one or two papers, or is this a mishearing of char-woman, as reported by others?
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  #7  
Old 01-10-2017, 08:28 AM
Mary_Jane_Kelly Mary_Jane_Kelly is offline
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So It seems Julia V is the same Julia that stayed with Mary before Mrs. Harvey...

Can anyone help with the other women on the list please?
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  #8  
Old 01-10-2017, 10:01 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Default Elizabeth Prater

Nice work MS


Here's brief bio on Elizabeth Prater:

She was born Elizabeth Broomer in Ashton Under Lyne in 1857, the daughter of James Broomer and Elizabeth Andrew. Elizabeth had at least five siblings: Edward, born c.1847 (possibly James Broomer’s stepson and registered in 1849 as Edward Andrews); MaryJane, born c.1852 (married John Clarke in Southwark in 1871); Rachael, born c.1853; Charles Henry, born c.1855; Elizabeth, born c.1857; and Samuel, born c.1860. All the family were born in Ashton-under-Lyne but also lived in Whitechapel for a spell in 1862 and Chatham Kent, where they were removed to by parish authorities.

Elizabeth Broomer married William Prater in St Thomas's Bethnal Green on Oct 8th 1881. William deserted Elizabeth soon after the marriage. Elizabeth spent two months in the Croydon Infirmary before her May 1884 entry to Whitechapel Infirmary where she was admitted for syphilis.

Records from Medway Union workhouse in 1860s/70s show orphans Elizabeth and Rachel put in to service from the workhouse. Brother Charles Henry was indentured into the Merchant Navy from the Medway Union workhouse in 1871, aged 15. Elizabeth left her position and re-entered the workhouse on at least 3 occasion, being sent back in to service on each occasion, probably in to a new position.

Elizabeth's life had many parallels to MJK's story as told to Barnett;
Both came from a large family and were moved to another place when young, Mary Jane supposedly from Ireland to Wales, Elizabeth from Lancashire to Kent. Both women spent a considerable time in an infirmary; Mary Jane had said she was in Cardiff Infirmary for nine months before 1884 for an unspecified illness, while Elizabeth had spent two months in Croydon Infirmary immediately before entering the Whitechapel Infirmary in 1884 suffering from syphilis.

Then there were the short-lived marriages, Mary Jane’s ended by tragedy, Elizabeth’s by desertion. A brother in uniform may also figure in both their lives, even the name ‘Henry’. Mary Jane was said to have a friend in Southwark she regularly visited, Elizabeth had once had a sister living there; maybe this sister was also viewed as ‘respectable’, as Mary Jane’s sister was. In January 1888, Elizabeth was able to pass herself off as a twenty five year old despite probably being nearer thirty-one years old. John McCarthy reportedly once said that Mary Jane was twenty-five but looked thirty.

The full Ripperologist article can be read here:
http://www.mangodesign.biz/ripperologist148.pdf
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Old 01-10-2017, 10:16 AM
Mary_Jane_Kelly Mary_Jane_Kelly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
In January 1888, Elizabeth was able to pass herself off as a twenty five year old despite probably being nearer thirty-one years old. John McCarthy reportedly once said that Mary Jane was twenty-five but looked thirty.
Where were these quotes from please? Id be interested to find out more about this...

I know Elizabeth Prater lived in millers court for some years after the death of Mary Kelly, she was interviewed by the journalist who interviewed the resident of millers court about the murder there in about 1909.
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Old 01-10-2017, 10:55 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mary_Jane_Kelly View Post
Where were these quotes from please? Id be interested to find out more about this...

I know Elizabeth Prater lived in millers court for some years after the death of Mary Kelly, she was interviewed by the journalist who interviewed the resident of millers court about the murder there in about 1909.
There were several newspapers that reported McCarthy said MJK was 25 but looked 30. I don't have one to hand at present.

I mention Kit Watkins in my Prater article. Her interviews in Miller's Court were done around 1892 I believe. Prater moved around the area quite a lot as documented in later Infirmary and workhouse records. She died in 1896 in the workhouse Infirmary.
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