thought experiment

[protohistorian]

I would like to try a thought experiment, using the well versed minds at this forum as a sounding board. The premis of this exercise is that George Chapman is suspect. I would like for the you guys to raise objections to his canidacy and I want to see if my understanding of serials, people, and the case would explain your objections. This is not a fact base excrcise, but obviously we cannot ignore facts. My intent is not to cnvert people to my way of thinking ( God help Us if that were possible) but rather to see if If this strong hunch I possess bears up to scrutiny. I thank you all in advance..., now have at me.

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Proto,

OK, here's one. There is no evidence he commited any of the Whitechapel murders.

Roy

[c.d.]

Hi Proto,

OK, here's one. There is no evidence he commited any of the Whitechapel murders.

Roy

And that puts him on the same level as the rest of the suspects.

c.d.

[protohistorian]

Hi Proto,

OK, here's one. There is no evidence he commited any of the Whitechapel murders.

Roy

Agreed. I am thinking however that he was known to murder individuals, and research since the JtR indicates that for serials this behavior rarely starts as fully developed. It is most probable that whoever JtR was, he committed more lethal crimes. Inversely, as we know chapman murdered, and had hid neck streched for the effort, we might ask ourself's about the not so readily visible aspects of his pathology. As for evidence specifically, we our over 6 generations away from the crimes and have no way of discerning what has been lost or destroyed, or even where surviving information in the possession of private individuals might be. I would submit, that all the hard work of ripperologists before us seems to point strongly towards this case being difficult to solve based on "evidence" per se. I submit however that we know about serials than any previous generation, and what we know indicates chapman has earlier victims. Thank You Roy

[protohistorian]

And that puts him on the same level as the rest of the suspects.

c.d.

Not quite C.D. we know Chapman was a serial murderer and that is something different from say lewis carrol the serial writer of absudities or walter Sickert the serial painter of seascapes. We have an established pathology that strongly intimates there are more bodies. Thanks for Responding

[jmenges]

Hi Dave,

Two things,

It appears that a motive for the poison murders was financial gain. Unless you believe Klosowski was hired to procure organs for sale, or robbed his victims, then not only has the method of murder changed, but the motivating factor as well.

And, as has been noted before, nothing prevented Chapman from carrying on with his Ripper-style attacks, so why the switch? What do we know of SK's that suggest that they would abandon a working method in favor of an entirely different one? Do you believe it is some type of natural SK evolution that we have similar examples of?

Disorganized to organized = graphic knife attacks on street prostitutes to slow poison murders of his domestic partners in his home?

JM

[protohistorian]

Hi Dave,

Two things,

It appears that a motive for the poison murders was financial gain. Unless you believe Klosowski was hired to procure organs for sale, or robbed his victims, then not only has the method of murder changed, but the motivating factor as well.

And, as has been noted before, nothing prevented Chapman from carrying on with his Ripper-style attacks, so why the switch? What do we know of SK's that suggest that they would abandon a working method in favor of an entirely different one? Do you believe it is some type of natural SK evolution that we have similar examples of?

Disorganized to organized = graphic knife attacks on street prostitutes to slow poison murders of his domestic partners in his home?

JM

The second issue is covered in a previous response. As for financial gain, that is a matter of outside entities (i.e. insurance companies ) responding to the death of the client. It could just as easily be bonus for George. This need not be a concious perception within the mind of George, so much as the fulfillment of a contractual obligation on the part of the insurance company. What is the state of evidence on the assertion of financial gain? thank you for participating, Respectfully Dave.

[jmenges]

What is the state of evidence on the assertion of financial gain?

I don't have the HL Adams in front of me but I'll pick it up shortly. So, in honesty, I can't point to a specific example. Whether it had something to do with his last attempt to quickly procure a death certificate (which was refused), the suggestion that he killed those who became financial burdens (like potentially his own offspring), and the attempted arson of the building he was leasing. Together, if true, these suggest that part of his motivation was financial.

Chapman has been characterized as a man who callously rid himself of the women whom he tired of. Once the female in his life bored him, snap of the fingers and they could be gone. This to me is an altogether different mindset from the random, quick, stranger killings of the Ripper. You say this behavior points to an evolution of his organization, but Chapman seems to settle into domestic relationships and then become unsettled, then murder or not murder. Its hard for me at least to connect the two as an evolution of his technique.

JM

[Sam Flynn]

What is the state of evidence on the assertion of financial gain?

Klosowski's first (known) poison victim, Mary Spink, had an inheritance of several hundred pounds, if I remember correctly.

[protohistorian]

Klosowski's first (known) poison victim, Mary Spink, had an inheritance of several hundred pounds, if I remember correctly.

Thanks, is that the extent of evidence behind the assertion that the motive was financial? Live Strong

[protohistorian]

Thanks John

I don't have the HL Adams in front of me but I'll pick it up shortly. So, in honesty, I can't point to a specific example. Whether it had something to do with his last attempt to quickly procure a death certificate (which was refused), the suggestion that he killed those who became financial burdens (like potentially his own offspring), and the attempted arson of the building he was leasing. Together, if true, these suggest that part of his motivation was financial.

Chapman has been characterized as a man who callously rid himself of the women whom he tired of. Once the female in his life bored him, snap of the fingers and they could be gone. This to me is an altogether different mindset from the random, quick, stranger killings of the Ripper. You say this behavior points to an evolution of his organization, but Chapman seems to settle into domestic relationships and then become unsettled, then murder or not murder. Its hard for me at least to connect the two as an evolution of his technique.

JM

I'll buy that he would certainly engage in profit motivated crimes, but not that profit was his primary consideration. He had some internal criteria that once met, made a person a prospective victim. If he was profit motivated that motivation would have fostered earlier profit motivated crime. Thanks and Live Strong Dave

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks, is that the extent of evidence behind the assertion that the motive was financial?

The first poisoning murder, perhaps - which may have simplified matters when it came to repeating the deed later.

The extent of the evidence doesn't go far I'll grant you - but, for what it's worth, it's somewhat stronger than any I've seen that would turn him into Jack the Ripper.

[protohistorian]

The second issue is covered in a previous response. As for financial gain, that is a matter of outside entities (i.e. insurance companies ) responding to the death of the client. It could just as easily be bonus for George. This need not be a concious perception within the mind of George, so much as the fulfillment of a contractual obligation on the part of the insurance company. What is the state of evidence on the assertion of financial gain? thank you for participating, Respectfully Dave.

Damnit, I sure miss alot! We have plenty of evidence, Disorganized SK as a group dont show a strong affinity for a working method over a method or weapon that better suits their fantasies, organized Sk's tend to favor the method of dispatch thats most effective. By the time organized killers kill, they are "done" with the victim (fantasy or idea has been met) and disposal becomes the issue at hand. This is one of the primary considerations for JtR fitting into the disorganized category, the other chief consideration being leaving bodies posed in public for discovery. Thanks again John Live Strong Dave

[protohistorian]

The first poisoning murder, perhaps - which may have simplified matters when it came to repeating the deed later.

The extent of the evidence doesn't go far I'll grant you - but, for what it's worth, it's somewhat stronger than any I've seen that would turn him into Jack the Ripper.

I am thinking that something within the Kelly crime or maybe the totality of it was no gratifying to the killer and the reason rippings stopped is the killer went into an experimental phase of fantasy evolution. If Chapman was in this state when he poisoned his first victim, he may have found a method of killing more suited to his fantasy. If that is the case, the 1 poisoning was profit triggered, and the subsequent ones were triggered by some event that made the killer see the victim as less than human. A close survey of violent crime towards women from the date of the Kelly killing until chapmans departure for America would be interesting. In the above scenario, JtR would be in an experimental phase of fantasy evolution, trying new things as it were, in order to regain the feeling he had with early victims. These need not be fatal events and would differ markedly from previous crimes.

[protohistorian]

It occurs to me that Chapman's "wife" left him on the return trip from America, if I am correct, this would also be a triggering event, and there would again be non- ripperlike crimes against women. These I suspect could be rapes as well as physical assaults. Also, what is the span of time between Chapmans return and poisoning no.1? Thanks for the help!