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Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by Debra A 58 minutes ago.
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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #2661  
Old 04-06-2018, 08:11 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Originally Posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
From a dissection on this site by Gerald Spicer - The river Thames has long been the end of the road for suicidal lunatics, victims of crime, and those involved in unfortunate accidents. Parliamentary returns for 1882 record that 544 corpses were found in the Thames, of which 277 cases resulted in open verdicts.
The London Times, ran an article on June 15 of that year entitled "Undetected Murders," pointing out that "the facilities afforded by the river for the perpetration of secret murders" was one that need to be addressed. "It is not a pleasant thing to reflect that there may be many ruffians prowling about London who have already committed riverside outrages with impunity, and may be tempted to commit others owing to the general laxity that prevails in our arrangement for ascertaining the causes of suspicious deaths."

From Rainham to Battersea is 20 miles, [and two years between the victims] IE A large stretch of the Thames would it really be unlikely to see a victim,over that time span and distance, when we don't know why they where a victim, was one or more a ritualistic killing like the Thames torso boy of a few years back, one of the victims could have been the result of a domestic where the killer had to cut up and get rid of the body, note the lack of heads as if to stop any identification, perhaps left in a more secure place, or one or more victims could be an operation in a back street surgery gone wrong, or it could be Jack, we simply don't know. But what seems reasonable is the Thames seems to be a perfect place to get rid of a body, and if we argue that not all the bodies where found in or near the river why didn't the killer, if it is indeed one killer why did he not leave all the corpses in the water rather than on land. I am not completely discounting Jack for all the bodies, just making a few thoughts of mine.
well the torso killer certainly didn't discard all of his victims in the river. only some and parts at that. pinchon was on the streetin the ripper territory no less, whithall in the basement of new SY. Parts thrown onto the shelley estate. Parts thrown in the river of Jackson I believe but her torso left on the bank.for me, where and how the torso man discarded the parts/torsos has significance to him above and beyond just trying to get rid of or conceal.

now if torsoman and ripper were the same the ripper series weren't thrown in the river because he was killing on the street so couldn't dismember or throw in the river.
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  #2662  
Old 04-06-2018, 08:15 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Originally Posted by Jon Guy View Post
Yes, we`re all ware that McKenzie was not killed in a flurry of murders, I was referring to your opinion on it been highly dubious that she was killed by the Ripper.

We don`t know who the Ripper killed, so measuring the extent of how dubious the author of a particular murder is not a fact, but an opinion. Your opinion.

It`s a fact that Dr Bond thought it was another Ripper murder.
Even Phillips, who disagreed, saw many similarities and went as far to admit as much. That`s a fact too.
don't you get it Jon?
its objective fact when coming from Sam, but only opinion coming from us.
what a joke.

and your right on your earlier post. since neither case was solved it can only be opinion that they weren't the same man. now that's a fact.
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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #2663  
Old 04-06-2018, 08:22 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is online now
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Yes, it´s much like how the police does it:

-Evening, sarge! Anything going down on our streets nowadays?

-Nothing much, Sir, nothing much.

-Any murders? No?

-Now that you mention it, we have had a string of murders, yes.

-Ugh! Nasty business, murders! I remember that Southcliff chap - terrible.

- Sutcliffe, Sir.

-Yes, Sutcliffe. Him. Hit people over the heads with a hammer and stabbed them with a screwdriver, he did!

-Yes, it was hell connecting the cases. We didn´t know what to think. We looked for similarities since the deeds were so close in time, but it turned up nothing.

-Clever bastard. Different approach all the time.

-Mmm.

-But these new killings, they are surely not the work of Southcliff, are they?

-Sutcliffe, Sir. Nah, he´s in prison, he is.

-Good, good.

-But the murders are much the same like his were, we can´t make heads or tails of them since they are all very different. They all have cut necks, opened up abdomens, the uterus taken away and the abdominal wall cut away in large sections, so there´s no reason to believe that they are connected.

-I see. Jolly bad luck, sarge. But ears to the ground and all that. Maybe something will turn up.

-Thank you, Sir. It´s a good thing that we are probably dealing with multiple single killers, anyway. I hate serialists. They are so damn hard to detect, and then when they confess, you are always flabbergasted. Turned out last week that the killings yesteryear were all the work of the same man.

-You mean the ones where the victims all had their buttocks sliced off, their noses painted blue and their hair set on fire? It was the same man? Well, I´d never! I don´t envy you guys that work of yours. It can´t be easy!

-God knows it´s not. But what is this lying on the pavement? A woman with her neck cut, her abdomen opened up, her uterus taken and the abdominal wall cut away in large sections! How grisly!

-Good luck with cracking that one, sarge!


I fear only you are laughing.
Rational debate goes out the window does it not.



Steve
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  #2664  
Old 04-06-2018, 08:53 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
I fear only you are laughing.
Rational debate goes out the window does it not.

Steve
Steve

There can be no rational debate with Christer, because he is so obsessed and fixated with what he believes to be correct. Nothing anyone says to him or anything that is put before him, is going to change that, so admin might as well shut this thread down and we can all stop wasting valuable time in trying to explain to him his misguided beliefs.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
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  #2665  
Old 04-06-2018, 08:53 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
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Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
I fear only you are laughing.
Rational debate goes out the window does it not.



Steve
No, Steve - it comes IN the window. Any effort I have made before has been sneered at as if I was wrong, and so satire becomes a weapon to make my view very clear. And that view is, if nothing else, strictly rational.

There was always the possibility to say "Yes it is odd in the extreme that these parameters are all present in the three cases you mention, but we must not jump to conclusions before knowing", and you would have been rational too.

Who laughs and who does not laugh, I couldn´t say. I am more interested in a thoughtful nod.

Last edited by Fisherman : 04-06-2018 at 08:57 AM.
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  #2666  
Old 04-06-2018, 08:55 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
don't you get it Jon?
its objective fact when coming from Sam, but only opinion coming from us.
what a joke.

and your right on your earlier post. since neither case was solved it can only be opinion that they weren't the same man. now that's a fact.
Hahah .. to be fair to Gareth, we need his sombre voice of cold reasoning, otherwise it would be mayhem here :-)
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  #2667  
Old 04-06-2018, 09:11 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is online now
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Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
Steve

There can be no rational debate with Christer, because he is so obsessed and fixated with what he believes to be correct. Nothing anyone says to him or anything that is put before him, is going to change that, so admin might as well shut this thread down and we can all stop wasting valuable time in trying to explain to him his misguided beliefs.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
Do you think,Trevor, that I am alone in thinking that there was just the one killer? Are you imagining a great heap of followers, cheering you on when you say that the torso murders were probably not murders at all? When you are unable to understand how a trouble psyche can result in a different way of dismembering a victim as opposed to practicaly working dismemberers, what do you think that does to your credibility (well...)?

If you think that you represent the majority out here, then you may just need to think again. I´m happy to take my chances in any comparison to you when it comes to credibility.
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  #2668  
Old 04-06-2018, 09:13 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
I think that question would be better answer by a criminal psychologist and not a forensic pathologist like Dr Biggs who deals with medical issues

I have set out below yet again some extracts from Dr Biggs assesemnt and evaluation of the facts surrounding these torsos

"Despite there being apparently a lot of information about these torsos, there is actually little pathological information to determine how they died (or when) so I can’t shed any light on that side of things, I’m afraid. Dismemberment isn’t that uncommon, and when it is seen it is usually (but not always!) the result of an attempt to conceal a homicide. Abortionists tended not to worry so much about concealing the fact that death occurred, but just made themselves scarce, so they couldn’t be linked to the woman after she was found (intact). However, I guess that if they carried out the abortions within their own property and the victims died, then I can understand the need to dispose of the body by dismemberment.

Dr Biggs was also asked a question re the comparisons between Kelly and Jackson. two who you link to the same killer,

Q. You have perused the post mortem reports from both the Kelly Murder and Elizabeth Jackson whose body is believed to have been one of the Thames Torsos. In your professional opinion are there any comparisons, which you can see which might indicate that they were killed and mutilated by the same person? In particular the doctors reports which mention flaps of skin being removed in both cases.

A. I don't think the removal of 'flaps' of tissue can be taken as evidence of a 'signature' of the killer. By signature, I am including both the intentional (i.e. 'calling card') and unintentional (habit, MO) interpretations of the word. Essentially, these two individuals could have been killed by the same person, or by different individuals. There is no way of telling one scenario from the other based purely on the pattern of body dismemberment.

"A person who is faced with a body to dispose of will often attempt to 'chop it up', either to make it easier to hide, easier to transport or easier to 'get rid of' in some way. What is quite striking is that even individuals with no prior knowledge will often end up doing a job that will look remarkably similar (in appearance afterwards) to that of another, completely unrelated case. It is not the presence of a common killer that is responsible for the similarities between cases, but the fact that bodies tend to have fairly obvious 'joins' to go for when attempting to reduce the size / bulk of a body.

"Put simply, the pattern of removing the head and limbs from the torso +/- splitting the torso in half seems to be fairly 'normal' in cases of dismemberment. The handful of dismemberment cases that I have personally dealt with in my short career so far have all ended up looking fairly similar, but I would never have tried to claim that this represented some sort of common link between cases"

[/i][/b]

I hope reading this again will bring you to your senses and make you abandon this misguided belife that all the torsos were the work of a killer and that killer murdered the Whitechapel women.

There really is no more to say on the topic. Your own medical opinions, you base you theory on clearly do not stand up to scrutiny and are not in line with 21st Century medical experts opinions. So who do we believe ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
Thanks for re-posting Dr Biggs opinions, Trevor.

I am a little puzzled by Dr Biggs last sentence of the Kelly/Jackson 'flap' comparison where he says it is impossible to tell if there is a link and common killer based purely on the pattern of body dismemberment. Kelly wasn't dismembered so that seems an odd statement.

I would be interested in asking Dr Biggs if the dismemberment cases he has experience of involved disarticulation of the joints to remove all the limbs and how rare or common he feels this is as a method of removing limbs, as opposed to just sawing through a thigh bone etc.
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  #2669  
Old 04-06-2018, 09:48 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is online now
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
No, Steve - it comes IN the window. Any effort I have made before has been sneered at as if I was wrong, and so satire becomes a weapon to make my view very clear. And that view is, if nothing else, strictly rational.

There was always the possibility to say "Yes it is odd in the extreme that these parameters are all present in the three cases you mention, but we must not jump to conclusions before knowing", and you would have been rational too.

Who laughs and who does not laugh, I couldn´t say. I am more interested in a thoughtful nod.
Which of course is what I have implied, by stating time and time again, that I see the similarities but do not beleive at this stage a case has been made which shows that those similarities are significant.

Given however that you have said the links are beyond reasonable doubt, you have said that those who disagree are losers, any such comments you suggest could have been made, would undoubted have been rejected.

Oh hang on they have been. It has been said that further evidence and more research is need to be able to reach firm conclusions has it not?


Steve


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  #2670  
Old 04-06-2018, 10:21 AM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is offline
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now if torsoman and ripper were the same the ripper series weren't thrown in the river because he was killing on the street so couldn't dismember or throw in the river.[/quote]
Hi Abby This is one of the reasons i have doubts about all the torso, if any are the work of Jack. Why change from an organized killer who took time to cut up his victims and discard the parts in different areas stretching miles apart without any witnesses over a period of time to then become a frenzied killer who murdered his victims in a short space of time in a very localized area, almost being interrupted in some of the killings to then go back to the MO he once had.
Also the lack of human heads in the cases {torso] indicates, possibly that he was trying to conceal the victims ID in case they where traced back to him. Note the Black Dahlia was cut in half but her head was still on the body with a grotesque grin if i am not mistaken which the killer had done. Why not to any of the Torso victims, Eddowes face seems to have been posed and perhaps Kellys as well. Lastly this is what the FBI profile says - As shown by the HITS analysis, the signature characteristics observed in the murders of
Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes, and Kelly are extremely rare. At the center
of Jack the Ripper’s signature was the display of control over the victim through the use
of a knife to penetrate the victims’ bodies and desecrate their sexual regions. Five of the
six victims were stabbed repeatedly in the genital area. Stabbing and cutting wounds are
relatively common in murders, but trauma to the genital area is extremely rare—in less
than one tenth of one per cent of all murder cases in the HITS system.
And this is what Swanson said about Pinchin St - "absence of attack on genitals as in series of Whitechapel murders." Also FBI - The trunk was full of blood indicating that a hemorrhage
had not occurred. This also indicated that the throat could not have been cut. Finally Whitehall, Dr Bond - In connection with the heart there were indications that convinced me that the woman did not die of suffocation or drowning.
I know manual strangulation before Jack cut the throat of his victims as never been proved, but i feel that's how he subdued his victims. No throat cut Pinchin, no strangulation Whitehall hmm.
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