Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
General Suspect Discussion: Favorite suspect/s? - by MrBarnett 6 minutes ago.
General Suspect Discussion: Favorite suspect/s? - by Joshua Rogan 37 minutes ago.
Witnesses: Caroline Maxwell Alibi ? - by Wickerman 38 minutes ago.
General Suspect Discussion: Favorite suspect/s? - by MrBarnett 42 minutes ago.
General Suspect Discussion: Favorite suspect/s? - by MrBarnett 48 minutes ago.
Witnesses: Our Charles Cross - by Herlock Sholmes 58 minutes ago.

Most Popular Threads:
General Suspect Discussion: Favorite suspect/s? - (18 posts)
Witnesses: Caroline Maxwell Alibi ? - (14 posts)
Witnesses: What EXACTLY did Maurice Lewis say? - (5 posts)
Witnesses: Our Charles Cross - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #2231  
Old 12-08-2017, 11:13 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,093
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockySullivan View Post
Hm that is weird. what is the deal with workman saying "george" found it?
That would be George Bugden. He was the man that actually dragged it into the light by the direction of the foreman. The press must have stated he found it for this reason.
Quick reply to this message
  #2232  
Old 12-08-2017, 11:16 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,093
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockySullivan View Post
jer do u have dundee courier oct 3 with all the "from central news agency stuff"?
No, I'm sorry i don't.
Quick reply to this message
  #2233  
Old 12-08-2017, 11:24 PM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,728
Default

Ok I'll get it to you it says that according the central news agency's "informant" he walked inti the vault was overwhelmed by the smell and ran out of the vault gasping for air screaming and alerted the foreman. it was in wrapped in course cloth (canvas?) and tightly bound in cord. i thought id seen you poost this before.
Quick reply to this message
  #2234  
Old 12-08-2017, 11:39 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,093
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockySullivan View Post
Ok I'll get it to you it says that according the central news agency's "informant" he walked inti the vault was overwhelmed by the smell and ran out of the vault gasping for air screaming and alerted the foreman. it was in wrapped in course cloth (canvas?) and tightly bound in cord. i thought id seen you poost this before.
Interesting.

Wildbore is the one who informed Mr. Brown (assistant foreman) about the parcel in the morning. Then Brown, after telling foreman Cheney later that day, directed Bugden to drag it out. In Wildbore's testimony below his mate is Richard Lawrence according to another paper.

Wildbore's testimony (partial):

Witness - No, sir; it was perfectly open, though the place was dark. My labourers had previously removed my tools. I went again about half past five the same day with my tools. Next morning I went again and noticed the same thing. I drew my mate's attention to it. I struck a wax vesta and looked at the object. That was the first time I had noticed it particularly. We looked closely at it, but did not form any idea of what it was, and both went away.
The Coroner - Did you report it?
Witness - Not then. I informed Mr. Brown, assistant foreman, about one o'clock, when he came down to where I was at work. We both went and looked at it, and found it a curious parcel. I left it to his decision.
The Coroner - Was it opened in your presence?
Witness - No, sir, not in my presence. I had not been at the spot for eight days before the previous Saturday, and then there was nothing to see. About three quarters of an hour after I left Mr. Brown with the parcel I heard that a body had been found in it. The parcel remained in the same position from the Monday to the time I drew Mr. Brown's attention to it, and Mr. Brown saw it as I first saw it. There was nothing in the vault but the parcel and the debris from a drain which had been opened near there. This vault had been used to place tools in for some weeks will within the last three weeks, when we had a lock up, and even after that I placed my tools there, as I considered them safer than in the lock up. I had not noticed any similar parcel before, and I saw no one taking one about the works. A plan of the works was here handed to the witness, and explained by him.


Brown's Testimony (partial):

Who called your attention to the parcel on Tuesday? - Wildbore. He asked me could I spare a moment or two to see a parcel. I went to the place. He struck a light. I thought I saw an old coat in the corner with what I fancied was a piece of ham in it. I took no more notice for some time. Then I got a lamp and had another look. I went up and told Mr. Cheney, foreman bricklayer, and asked one of the labourers to go and fetch a curious parcel out of the corner in the vault. I went down again, and Budgen had just got the parcel out. I was not aware of any smell.

Last edited by jerryd : 12-08-2017 at 11:45 PM.
Quick reply to this message
  #2235  
Old 12-09-2017, 12:02 AM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,728
Default

Strange how different the stories are. I guess we should go by the inquest?
Quick reply to this message
  #2236  
Old 12-09-2017, 12:15 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,093
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockySullivan View Post
Strange how different the stories are. I guess we should go by the inquest?
Well, that's kinda why I thought it was interesting. The inquest opened on October 8th. That's when Wildbore and Brown gave their testimony. Your report from the Central News is from October 3rd? It sounds like their "informant" may have been Wildbore himself. Maybe he did tell them (Central News) it smelled when they interviewed him and changed his story at the inquest? Why? He realized it didn't reflect well on him if there was a horrible smell coming from the parcel and he didn't say anything about it the previous two times he looked at it.

Last edited by jerryd : 12-09-2017 at 12:18 AM.
Quick reply to this message
  #2237  
Old 12-09-2017, 02:38 AM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,728
Default

Are you positive that the arm didnt fit with the torso because of the shoulder blade? At first they thought the two arms and torso were related because they were removed in an unskilled manor. Is it possible they did fit? Is there any report that states the whitehall torso was wrapped in a canvas?
Quick reply to this message
  #2238  
Old 12-11-2017, 09:29 AM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: North Kilttown, Scotland
Posts: 801
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockySullivan View Post
That's very strange about the dead child i wonder how old he was? do you guys feel the baby in the jar found around the time time of the discovery of Jackson's parts is unrelated to the case?
Was it found in a jar, Rocky? If it had been found in a brown paper parcel, i'd say yes.

I'm like most Ripperologist who've considered that Jack may have been a child killer; however, I am cautious not to attribute every murder of the late 80s to the killer. I found two likelihoods when it came to the discovery of dead newborns. The first likelihood, an ashamed young mother was responsible, usually hiding the dead infant somewhere near to the homestead (eg barrel, &c.). The second likelihood was the discovery of a brown paper parcel containing the dead newborn, and these parcels were found in manners & places similar to the Torso Killer's method of leaving body parts in public places. If you have BNA and advance search "brown parcel" between 87 and 88, there are many different instances of people discovering newborns that had been stillborn or killed recent to their births; in nearly every case, the poor child had been covered in a piece of cloth (eg flannel, underwear, &c.) & tied up in brown paper parcel and deposited in a public place. Sometimes the child had met with violence.

There are more but here are a few of the dates of dead newborns found wrapped in brown parcel paper:
Feb 1888 infant found underneath the seat of a tramcar
Apr 1888 infant found in a hedge, Millhill House, Newbattle, Dalkeith
May 1888 infant found on Liverpool tramcar
July 1888 infant found at Hampstead cemetary
Sep 1888 infant found floating near Com Mill bridge
Nov 1888 infant found floating in water near Russell Street, Darlington

Since each case has this brown paper parcel in common, it gives me the impression that this activity may have been the preferred disposal method of a midwife operation who serviced women who did not want their newborn child. Most of the children were not cut to pieces. Could it have been that occasionally a woman may have died during the procedure, and she was cut into pieces that were roughly the same size as these infants, and her parts were disposed with the child?
__________________
there,s nothing new, only the unexplored
Quick reply to this message
  #2239  
Old 12-11-2017, 11:41 AM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,728
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert St Devil View Post
Was it found in a jar, Rocky? If it had been found in a brown paper parcel, i'd say yes.

I'm like most Ripperologist who've considered that Jack may have been a child killer; however, I am cautious not to attribute every murder of the late 80s to the killer. I found two likelihoods when it came to the discovery of dead newborns. The first likelihood, an ashamed young mother was responsible, usually hiding the dead infant somewhere near to the homestead (eg barrel, &c.). The second likelihood was the discovery of a brown paper parcel containing the dead newborn, and these parcels were found in manners & places similar to the Torso Killer's method of leaving body parts in public places. If you have BNA and advance search "brown parcel" between 87 and 88, there are many different instances of people discovering newborns that had been stillborn or killed recent to their births; in nearly every case, the poor child had been covered in a piece of cloth (eg flannel, underwear, &c.) & tied up in brown paper parcel and deposited in a public place. Sometimes the child had met with violence.

There are more but here are a few of the dates of dead newborns found wrapped in brown parcel paper:
Feb 1888 infant found underneath the seat of a tramcar
Apr 1888 infant found in a hedge, Millhill House, Newbattle, Dalkeith
May 1888 infant found on Liverpool tramcar
July 1888 infant found at Hampstead cemetary
Sep 1888 infant found floating near Com Mill bridge
Nov 1888 infant found floating in water near Russell Street, Darlington

Since each case has this brown paper parcel in common, it gives me the impression that this activity may have been the preferred disposal method of a midwife operation who serviced women who did not want their newborn child. Most of the children were not cut to pieces. Could it have been that occasionally a woman may have died during the procedure, and she was cut into pieces that were roughly the same size as these infants, and her parts were disposed with the child?
Robert thank you it was a parcel wasn't it? I'm sorry I need to read the report again. The dates and location i thought lined up too well with Liz Jackson although the age supposedly didnt match i am starting to lose all faith in the opinion of these doctors. But it's very interesting that parceling this was way was the method used by midwifes to dispose of the fetuses! Incredible find!

Now what was the story again about the woman who was an abortionist and lived in Backchurch lane?
Quick reply to this message
  #2240  
Old 12-11-2017, 11:50 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,093
Default

You were right the first time, Rocky. The fetus was found in a pickling jar.
Quick reply to this message
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.