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Lusk Letter sent to George Lusk of the vigilante committee

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  • #16
    >Which assumes he could tell the difference. Sure . . . if he finds a bottle marked "Abbey Normal" [Stop that!--Ed.] "Female Kidney"--but the problem is it was not properly preserved. So he did not get it from a post-mortem room.


    Hmmmmmm, thats an interesting point. And from my limited experience in working in a hospital lab connected to post mortems the organs and their owners are very strictly cross referenced and the porters never really got their hands on something like this. Of course it could be different then.

    What's the evidence for bad preservation? If its not from a post mortem where the hell he get it from!? Murder for a hoax seems a bit extreme!


    >Right . . . anyways, the point to all of my blather is that the dudes back then could not tell as much about the kidney. How could they know if the "ginny kidney" with "Bright's Disease" was the same set for Eddowes? Answer: they could not.

    >Now, again, that does not mean it was NOT her kidney; one just cannot conclude it is based on the information extant.

    Its certainly doesnt identify it as her kidney. It would be interesting to chart exactly who handled it from the time Lusk recieved it. So we can see if anyone could have trimmed part of the artery off. Of course Jack could have before he sent it (if he did) but then the account of the remaining artery would be bogus.



    >Yes. I would not be surprised if people looked at the fatty to cirrhotic livers and concluded the two were connected. You are correct about her state of health.

    Given the views of the period yes.


    >No problem! I got excited too, because certainly what is described fits the expectations. However--to my recollection of Sudgen because my sources are not handy--there were reports early enough that a hoaxer could figure it out. Does not mean he did, but it leaves an "out."

    Yes, my intuition here is based on 'kidney = great hoax job (maybe)', 'letter = rubbish hoax (maybe)' therefore somethings odd here, why waste ones effort if your not going to follow through a do a complete hoax...



    >Then he should have gotten it correct. However, the kidney was stored in the wrong medium for hospital post mortem. Regarding spelling, it could be a case of someone trying to fake uneducated spelling without realizing the more common mistakes. Not saying it is, just that I am suspicious.

    Yes it could, but then why write it in such an obviously formal and clerkish style, 'Sur' and 'signed', and that 'sur' is an absurd deliberate typo for a hoaxer, though I've seen similar phonetic spellings in non English speakers.
    It makes me suspicious in opposite direction.



    >To which . . . someone could claim he intentionally stored it in the wrong medium . . . and we are rushing down trails of assumptions that can only lead to the Masons and Lee Harvey Oswald!

    No he worked for the Mob, they werent around )


    >I do not know . . . we are still questioning it. Sudgen regards it as "possibly" genuine--he notes the arguments for and against. To my Newbie Knowledge, it is considered the most "probable"--which means 27 posters are going to descend upon me to denounce that!!

    Its easier to criticize than to build a case, lesser minds trying to be clever will always take that route


    >It reminds me, a bit, of a few Trolls I have encountered on OTHER BOARDS who try to pretend to be ethnic and write in an "accent" which people do not actually do when they write in a foreign language. I will not recreate it since examples tend to be racist Trolls, but I think you get the drift.

    Sure.

    >Which . . . goes back to the whole graffito argument--was it legitimate--a lot of people feel it was--and was Jack trying to distract or make a statement.

    I doubt he wrote the graffiti, sounds like typical racist slurs (though maybe with a grain of truth this time). The idea it was 'fresh', whatever that means, was pure speculation. But I do think he stopped by it for some reason, and find the idea that it was 'blurred' and the apron was dropped beneath it a bit suggestive. Did he try to erase it, but get interupted? Thats another post tho...



    >With both--Lusk letter and graffito--the thing that gets me is that he did not write again. I would think that a serial killer like Jack, who is willing to taunt authorities and a head of a "vigilance committee" would want to keep writing. That is an assumption, of course! He may have had a bunch of packages with bits of Mary Kelly ready to deliver when the Loch Ness Monster got him!

    Maybe he was just amused by the hoaxes, and wanted to have a go himself, to stop the imposters getting the limelight, and prove his letter the 'real one' .
    It was a novel idea at the time. By the kelly job I think he was pretty paranoid and wouldnt risk it.



    >I rather read that as he is from "Hell' because he is a devil/daemon who resides there and does evil like poke people with pointy sticks and make them listen to country-western music, and who has taken a sabbatical. In other words, I think it is just a boast. If legitimate, the letter is a cocky boast, not a emo "I am ALONE . . . in HELL" sort of letter.

    Could be taken either way. Apparently there was a Russian Nihilist group called Hell, its suicide bombers used to disfigure themselves and taunt victims before blowing themselves to bits, made 'al qaeda' look like wussies...


    >I am sort of there too. I tend to remain skeptical since it is sooo tempting to believe something from Jack remains. That always leaves the promise that somehow, someway, it can lead to him.


    Well even it was from him probably doesnt take us anywhere....

    Prowler, the Vigilantee

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    • #17
      >Probably a lot from simply being an a-hole to being able to think you got one on somebody. Some find such things funny. I just read a review of a few decades long controversy in scholarship--lots of papers written back and forth--which seems to show that, yes, a scholar committed a hoax and left "jokes" in the work. Why? The scholar was that type of guy--thought he was smarter and cleverer than his critics. The guy responsible for the Nessie photo everyone sees apparently felt similarly.

      Exactly, he wants to prove he's clever. And I still think the letter isn't, it just rides on the kidney, so to speak.

      >One thing that struck me when I first got into this was how many letters there are. Granted nearly all of them are obvious hoaxes; however, that simply means a lot of people wrote them.

      Undoubtedly, but I think even the rubbish ones mostly went along with the Jack name. Which proves them as fakes.


      >I guess it would depend on my interest and intent. Actually, the Lusk letter is not a bad job. You read the news papers--get the reports--send the letter. This is the problem with the Lusk letter--a great hoax would be a piece of kidney! One can wonder why Jack did not send something else--like one of the suppose rings he took from a previous victim? But that is speculation on motivations . . . and we all know where that leads us!

      Rings have value, he's obviously poor

      >Nowadays it is much harder to get away with such things.

      What faking evidence? OMG modern science will collapse lol.
      Last edited by Vigilantee; 04-19-2008, 08:46 AM. Reason: Because I can

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      • #18
        Quick thing: the Lusk letter is different from the "From Hell." It does not mention Hell at all. This is what I get when I pontificate without the sources in front of me. . . .

        Originally posted by Vigilantee View Post
        What's the evidence for bad preservation?
        It was preserved in spirits. Which did not preserve it!

        It would be interesting to chart exactly who handled it from the time Lusk recieved it. So we can see if anyone could have trimmed part of the artery off.
        To my knowledge [Stolen from Sugden, whose name he cannot ever bother to spell correctly.--Ed.], Lusk with Aarons and Harris took it to Dr. Fredrick Wiles, who was not in, so it was examined by his assistant, Mr F. S Reed. Reed then brought it over to Dr. Thomas Openshaw for examination under a microscope, (Sugden, 263-64).

        Of course Jack could have before he sent it (if he did) but then the account of the remaining artery would be bogus.
        The trimming rather points against it being Jack. "Points" but does not prove, of course.

        Yes, my intuition here is based on 'kidney = great hoax job (maybe)', 'letter = rubbish hoax (maybe)' therefore somethings odd here, why waste ones effort if your not going to follow through a do a complete hoax...
        I do not know . . . again, it is "fooling" people to this day if it is a hoax. We are certainly discussing it.

        It makes me suspicious in opposite direction.
        Yeah . . . one can make arguments in both directions.

        No he worked for the Mob, they werent around )
        Ah . . . but they were . . . if you believe the Mafia exists . . . and Oswald caught a ride from some loser of a janitor, his anal-retentive holographic nemesis, a cat, and a robot with issues.

        It all . . . comes together. . . .

        Anyways, the problem with the evidence is we can read it in too many directions, and it is difficult to provide a definitive response.

        I doubt he wrote the graffiti, sounds like typical racist slurs (though maybe with a grain of truth this time). The idea it was 'fresh', whatever that means, was pure speculation. But I do think he stopped by it for some reason, and find the idea that it was 'blurred' and the apron was dropped beneath it a bit suggestive. Did he try to erase it, but get interupted? Thats another post tho...
        Yet, a lot of other [Straw--Ed.] Ripperologists feel he did. Of course, thanks to a failure to photograph it or comment on it--fresh or not--means their is no way to analyze it. Imagine if you could compare the handwriting on the Lusk and graffito? Of course we cannot do that.

        Could be taken either way. Apparently there was a Russian Nihilist group called Hell, . . .
        As above, that is a different letter. I do not think many feel it is legitimate.

        Waits for 27 posters to descend. . . .

        Well even it was from him probably doesnt take us anywhere....
        Sadly it does not. Unless you could recover DNA . . . use a database . . . find a relative in the multitudes of people . . . this will all happen after we get our ponies.

        Yours truly,

        --J.D.

        Comment


        • #19
          So it was badly preserved in spirits, surely no medical guy would do that, even a porter. We know its human, we can at least credit the examiners with that much professionalism. To me that makes it more likely genuine. Where else did it come from? Unless the torso murderer fancied a laugh?

          Of course if we could come up with some case for it being Eddowes kidney, given he above topics we can then deduce the letters from a poor immigrant, probably a Russian Jew, about 5'6 who keeps a parrot as a pet

          PtV

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          • #20
            I do agree its all probalistic speculation though, everything is, so theres no such thing as proof to contrast it with Anything goes, probably....

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Vigilantee View Post
              We know its human, we can at least credit the examiners with that much professionalism.
              Can we? The problem is we do not know the condition of the kidney. "Microscopic examination" means . . . what? Did they section it? Stain it? Or did he just look at it under a low power microscope and say, "yup! Human!"?

              Now, to be fair, I think one should speculate it was human unless someone can show that an improperly preserved kidney could appear as a human kidney with glomerulonephritis.

              And . . . whilst we speculate . . . since it is described as half of a kidney with a trimmed renal artery, could it be a stolen specimen stuck in spirits for a bit?

              Who knows?

              This reminds me of any mythic reconstruction--you have to start with some assumptions, and the argument is about as solid as the assumptions.

              Of course if we could come up with some case for it being Eddowes kidney, given he above topics we can then deduce the letters from a poor immigrant, probably a Russian Jew, about 5'6 who keeps a parrot as a pet
              Raven!!

              RAVEN!!!

              Yours truly,

              --J.D.

              Comment


              • #22
                The kidney had been preserved in wine - not medical spirit - but Swanson concluded in his report that such a kidney could easily be 'obtained from any dead person upon whom a post mortem had been made'.
                I am no medical expert and certainly have no experience how to establish the origin of a kidney, but all medical men involved came to the conclusion that it was human. Some of them even went as far as establishing that it was from a human adult or full grown human being. I have no idea how they came to this conclusion but it is a very specified statement.
                Openshaw, however, admitted that he could not determine if it was from a woman or a male. And since it had been preserved in wine, he couldn't established how long it's been since it was removed from the body.

                Personally I agree with people like Lusk and Swanson that it probably was a hoax by a medical student - several other letters clearly showed that seemingly ordinary and respectable people could go to great lengths and display quite morbid tendencies, just for the sake of the thrill and without any necessary motive. The feeling and excitement of being a part of the police investigation is generally 'motive' enough, plus that some gets the chance to fulfill their inner macabre fantasies. Many of the so called Ripper letters are quite bizarre and morbid, some are laughable while some are more disturbing (if we exclude the kidney many are in their content even more bizarre and revolting than the From hell letter).

                The only thing that I really might find compelling and interesting is the fact, that - during a time when most people were very much ispired and taken by the new exciting name Jack the Ripper (and copied ech other and things in the press) - this letter writer chooses to NOT sign the letter Jack the Ripper or give himself another taunting trade name. What he (or she) does, is running his own race and completely doing his own thing.
                However, it is no evidence of that the letter might be genuine, only that it's an interesting detail.

                As for the spelling mistakes, one must note that although many indicates an Irish (or attempt of Irish) accent, a couple of very difficult words to spell if you have insufficient writing skills - like 'signed' - are correctly spelled. While some spelling errors and the word 'Tother' (possibly a merge of 'the' and 'other') seems constructed and a bit 'over the top'.
                But again - we will never know.

                All the best
                The Swedes are the Men that Will not Be Blamed for Nothing

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Glenn Lauritz Andersson View Post
                  I am no medical expert and certainly have no experience how to establish the origin of a kidney, but all medical men involved came to the conclusion that it was human.
                  You check the serial number. [Stop that!--Ed.]

                  Right . . . sorry. . . .

                  Anyways, I am not--without seeing the damn thing--going to contradict Openshaw's opinion or that of Reed. So theirs is the "default" position in my opinion. If they took sections and examined it accordingly, they could determine that probably pretty well. "Adult" probably came from the size of the kidney.

                  And since it had been preserved in wine, he couldn't established how long it's been since it was removed from the body.
                  I think that is a critical point. Alcohol you drink is not bactericidal nor bacteriostatic--in fact, the whisky you drink is not high enough in alcohol. You need greater than 95% to my recollection, but do not quote me. Red wine does seem to retard bacterial growth. Anyways, the point is it is hard to "date" the kidney given what is known. Openshaw certainly could not do it, and he saw the damn thing.

                  Personally I agree with people like Lusk and Swanson that it probably was a hoax by a medical student - several other letters clearly showed that seemingly ordinary and respectable people could go to great lengths and display quite morbid tendencies, . . .
                  You know . . . I tend to lean that way. I really am on the fence, but the fact the artery was trimmed up and NO MORE LETTERS with bits 'n pieces followed strikes me as just too coincidental.

                  Yours truly,

                  --J.D.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Doctor X View Post
                    I think that is a critical point. Alcohol you drink is not bactericidal nor bacteriostatic--in fact, the whisky you drink is not high enough in alcohol. You need greater than 95% to my recollection, but do not quote me. Red wine does seem to retard bacterial growth.
                    Hi JD/Glenn,

                    The kidney had apparently been preserved in spirits of wine (i.e. rectified ethanol - circa 95%) as opposed to Chateauneuf du Pape.
                    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                      The kidney had apparently been preserved in spirits of wine (i.e. rectified ethanol - circa 95%) as opposed to Chateauneuf du Pape.
                      Ah . . . beddy INtahwesting!

                      Yet another great theory dash'd upon the rocks of reality. . . .

                      Any idea how common it would be? In other words "who" could obtain it?

                      --J.D.

                      Comment


                      • #26


                        Oh . . . and thanks to the 27 posters for NOT jumping down my throat when I posted a "correction" above that the letter does not say "from Hell." I looked too quickly at the letter.

                        Do . . . not . . . post under the influence. . . .

                        --J.D.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                          Hi JD/Glenn,

                          The kidney had apparently been preserved in spirits of wine (i.e. rectified ethanol - circa 95%) as opposed to Chateauneuf du Pape.
                          What? Bloody hell (pardon my expression), it seems I have misunderstood that all along due to a language issue. Thanks for that, Sam.
                          However, feels nice to finally be able to enjoy my Italian red Amarone or Ripasso wines without having Eddowes' kidney popping up in my head...


                          All the best
                          The Swedes are the Men that Will not Be Blamed for Nothing

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Doctor X View Post


                            Oh . . . and thanks to the 27 posters for NOT jumping down my throat when I posted a "correction" above that the letter does not say "from Hell." I looked too quickly at the letter.

                            Do . . . not . . . post under the influence. . . .

                            --J.D.
                            Actually, I was at the point of commenting that at first, mostly because I wanted to be clear about what you meant or if I misunderstood you, but I erased it from the post. I assumed it was a mistake on your part.
                            The Swedes are the Men that Will not Be Blamed for Nothing

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Yeah . . . do not know what the hell I was drinking. . . .

                              I still think--actually looking at the damn thing properly!--that it is part of a "taunt" as in the killer is a demon from Hell rather than a comment on the writer's emotional state.

                              Yours embarrassingly,

                              --J.D.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Hi JD,
                                Originally posted by Doctor X View Post
                                Any idea how common it would be? In other words "who" could obtain it?
                                Spirits of wine seems to have been fairly ubiquitous in Victorian Britain, seemingly only costing a few pennies per bottle. Trawling through the Times between 1840 and 1890, I found that it had many and varied applications.

                                It was used by practitioners of such humble professions as stick-makers in making varnish. You may recall that Israel Lipski used cheap brandy for the same purpose.

                                Tin cases, filled with spirits of wine, were used by explorers as portable "cookers" to warm their food. Metal rods or bamboo poles bearing a wad of cotton-wool or similar material, impregnated with spirits of wine, were used as "tapers" to light chandeliers in theatres and concert-halls.

                                In 1858, some 211,352 gallons of "spirits of wine or pure alcohol" were sold in Britain "for home consumption". That probably means "not exported", by the way - God forbid that it was quaffed around the dinner table!

                                That's not to say it didn't have its domestic applications - spirits of wine was used in making tinctures of opium, camphor, peppermint (etc) and other weird and wonderful home remedies. The substance was also applied in cleaning and polishing domestic furniture and paintings.

                                It's clear that the stuff was available to, and commonly used by, more than just doctors and medical students.
                                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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