When was the estimation of when Mary took her last meal of fish and potatoes?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I think you made an excellent point earlier regarding the possibility that Blotchy and Kelly could have initially met in the pub. Although there are obviously no witnesses, the fact is we don't tend to remember casual observations: I was in a pub myself this lunch time but I couldn't describe anyone else who was there- even in the remotest detail- apart from the people I was with of course, although it was quite busy.

Regarding the possible delay in murdering Kelly. Firstly, although serial killers mainly kill strangers there is evidence that they also frequently kill people known to them: according to Hickey (1997) almost one third of a male serialist's victims are known to him. However, if Kelly was murdered by Blotchy, and assuming she wasn't a stranger and that he was also the Ripper, her murder would clearly be quite risky, I.e because of the personal connection. Therefore maybe her murder wasn't planned, but she just happened to say or do something that enraged him, causing him to lose control. In fact, if he was the Ripper I think it's fair to assume that he would have been so potentially dangerous, and unpredictable, that it could have been something quite minor, such as simply asking him to leave.

Hi Again JohnG
on further thought though-I Think it might be a distinct possibility. Serial killers don't only have kill relationships with women. A lot are married and have girlfriends-so maybe he wasn't initially looking to her as a victim but a partner.
It might explain, as you say, the apparent change in MO and length of time before he killed her.

I shall think about it some more!

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby. I prefer your former. IF Blotchy killed "MJK," then the 4.00 cries were merely collateral noise.

Cheers.
LC

Yes
Im starting to think more and more that they were.

I recently saw a show where the time of death was established based mainly on that two neighbors heard gunshots in the middle of the night.

It turns out she had been killed the previous morning.

The TOD was so firmly established based on what the neighbors heard that suspects were being cleared based on there alibi in the middle of the night.

I think there is a good possibility that mary was dead long before 4:00 am.

[Abby Normal]

Hello C4,

According to Dr Bond there was a "small superficial incision" to the right thumb. Of course, this might be indicative of a token attempt at defence, however, presumably such a superficial cut may have nothing to do with attack. The sheet, at the right-hand corner of the bed, was bloody and badly cut. This suggested to Dr Bond that Kelly's face may have been covered by the sheet at the time she was attacked.

This.
Another possible indication they knew each other.

[Abby Normal]

Hello John.

"Moreover, if the murder was planned would the killer have waited for several hours before striking?"

Excellent observation. Also, are we to imagine him sitting in a chair, fully dressed so as to conceal his knife whilst she undressed and went to bed?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn
Its an interesting observation/idea, but its never really bothered me. he probably could have just left the knife in his coat pocket, where he probably normally carried it anyway, and taken the coat off, hanging it on the back of said chair.

Its not like mary was in a very perceptive state anyway.

[Abby Normal]

After looking at all the comings and goings of the various witnesses, I think Mary was possibly killed around 1:30.

it would jibe with the meal and alleviate the problem of why Blotchy(as the ripper) would wait 4 hours to kill her. I could see Blotchy waiting an hour or so for the court to calm down and maybe wait for her to get drunker/pass out?

Of course this would discount Hutch as a liar, but i dont think thats a very controversial point. But it begs the question what was he doing then wtaching and waiting, if she is already dead. In this scenario, it seems that hutch thought she was either with a client and waiting for him to leave or probably thought she was still out and waiting for her to return. He was probably just looking for a place to crash, or if he got lucky to sleep with her.

[packers stem]

Hi Abby

After looking at all the comings and goings of the various witnesses, I think Mary was possibly killed around 1:30

Only question mark i would put against this is that at 1am in my experience,people tend to carry on drinking if they have drink(which Blotchy had),then worry about the food a bit later when the alcohol supply has dried up.She must have known Blotchy to be sitting there singing with him.Suspect she probably went back out for food after the beer had gone...and probably blotchy.He clearly wasn't a client,just a friend.

Of course this would discount Hutch as a liar, but i dont think thats a very controversial point. But it begs the question what was he doing then wtaching and waiting, if she is already dead. In this scenario, it seems that hutch thought she was either with a client and waiting for him to leave or probably thought she was still out and waiting for her to return. He was probably just looking for a place to crash, or if he got lucky to sleep with her.

If you don't believe Hutchinson's story,and i'm not one to disagree with you there,why do you believe he stood and watched?
'Oh Murder' has always sounded like a discovery to me,not an attack.Can't for the life of me imagine anyone coming out with that faced with a knife coming at them

[barnflatwyngarde]

Folks,
It is assumed that the Police trawled all the local pubs after Mary's murder, presumably to see if anyone had seen her, either alone or in company (possibly focussing on the description of Blotchy).
I am however unable to trace any confirmation of this.

I have checked in "The Ultimate JTR Sourcebook", and Paul Begg's "JTR: The Facts" and couldn't find any reference to Police checking the local pubs.
Could someone give me some references that detail exactly how extensive this trawl was, or even what questions they were asking.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby


Only question mark i would put against this is that at 1am in my experience,people tend to carry on drinking if they have drink(which Blotchy had),then worry about the food a bit later when the alcohol supply has dried up.She must have known Blotchy to be sitting there singing with him.Suspect she probably went back out for food after the beer had gone...and probably blotchy.He clearly wasn't a client,just a friend.



If you don't believe Hutchinson's story,and i'm not one to disagree with you there,why do you believe he stood and watched?
'Oh Murder' has always sounded like a discovery to me,not an attack.Can't for the life of me imagine anyone coming out with that faced with a knife coming at them

Hi PS
I think in that scenario she had drinks with Blotchy at the pub abd grabbed some food with him around that time, then headed home with him. I don't think she had any inclination or ability to go out after Blotchy, even if he wasn't her killer. All things seem to indicate she was settled in for the evening after she came in with Blotchy.

I believe hutch stood and watched because its corroborated by Sarah lewis. Like I said he was probably trying to meet up with Mary for a place to crash and or sleep with her.
His aman story is BS he came up later to cash in somehow.

[packers stem]

One small point on food digestion is that although it depends on the individual 3 hours for potato alone would be extreme...
Phillips in the Chapman case said there was very little food left in the stomach...not no food.Chapman we know was eating a baked potato at 1.30 so what does that tell us of the TOD there?

[packers stem]

Hi Abby

I believe hutch stood and watched because its corroborated by Sarah lewis. Like I said he was probably trying to meet up with Mary for a place to crash and or sleep with her.
His aman story is BS he came up later to cash in somehow.

Sarah Lewis is a monumental problem for us in that she said the same as Mrs Kennedy in terms of being accosted but a completely different version of events in Dorset Street.
If we suspect they are one and the same ,we have to ask ourselves why her story changed from 3-3.30, woman with no hat talking to 2 men(or possibly one man and a masculine woman),one of whom was "standing in the shadows" ....to a man standing in a doorway in a wideawake hat and she 'knew' it was 2.30 by the church clock.
If they are the 'friends' and they were together when accosted in Bethnal green then fine ,we've got two good witness accounts to go by.
There's no doubt in my mind that 'someone' was watching the court OR that 'someone' was watching the attack on Stride....i just don't believe it has anything to do with Hutchinson

[packers stem]

Folks,
It is assumed that the Police trawled all the local pubs after Mary's murder, presumably to see if anyone had seen her, either alone or in company (possibly focussing on the description of Blotchy).
I am however unable to trace any confirmation of this.

I have checked in "The Ultimate JTR Sourcebook", and Paul Begg's "JTR: The Facts" and couldn't find any reference to Police checking the local pubs.
Could someone give me some references that detail exactly how extensive this trawl was, or even what questions they were asking.

Hi Barney(the rest of the name being a bit of a mouthful )
Never seen it either ...The whole investigation did appear to tail off a bit after Millers Court ....maybe my imagination

[Wickerman]

Hi Barney(the rest of the name being a bit of a mouthful )
Never seen it either ...The whole investigation did appear to tail off a bit after Millers Court ....maybe my imagination

This was an account in the press, though the account does not specify who did the checking, the press or police. We have assumed it was the police who canvased the pubs & beer shops, due to the fact it would be required for them to do so.

Daily Telegraph, 13 Nov.
"Inquiry has equally failed to obtain evidence of Kelly or any person similar to the man described having bought beer at any of the neighbouring public-houses."

[Wickerman]

...
If we suspect they are one and the same ,we have to ask ourselves why her story changed from 3-3.30, woman with no hat talking to 2 men(or possibly one man and a masculine woman),one of whom was "standing in the shadows" ....to a man standing in a doorway in a wideawake hat and she 'knew' it was 2.30 by the church clock.

Also, Lewis said she saw a man & woman outside the Britannia about 2:30, but Kennedy said she saw a man & two women outside the Britannia about 3:00.
Some press accounts identify that second woman as Kelly.

[barnflatwyngarde]

This was an account in the press, though the account does not specify who did the checking, the press or police. We have assumed it was the police who canvased the pubs & beer shops, due to the fact it would be required for them to do so.

Daily Telegraph, 13 Nov.
"Inquiry has equally failed to obtain evidence of Kelly or any person similar to the man described having bought beer at any of the neighbouring public-houses."

Wicker man, thanks for this.
Yeah I thought that the reports of police checking in pubs might have come from the press.

Personally I think that people place far too much emphasis on press reports when looking for evidence to support a practical thesis or suspect.

I would trust the press of 1888 as much as I would trust the press of 2015.

If all we have to support the premise that Police made a thorough investigation of local pubs and their patrons in an effort to ascertain if Mary was in the pub on the Thursday night are newspaper reports, it surely entitles us to ask just how thorough their investigation was.

In other words, if there is no contemporaneous evidence that Police investigated thoroughly, their is a very real possibility that Mary was in a local pub that night.
Possibly with Blotchy.

[Michael W Richards]

Wicker man, thanks for this.
Yeah I thought that the reports of police checking in pubs might have come from the press.

Personally I think that people place far too much emphasis on press reports when looking for evidence to support a practical thesis or suspect.

I would trust the press of 1888 as much as I would trust the press of 2015.

If all we have to support the premise that Police made a thorough investigation of local pubs and their patrons in an effort to ascertain if Mary was in the pub on the Thursday night are newspaper reports, it surely entitles us to ask just how thorough their investigation was.

In other words, if there is no contemporaneous evidence that Police investigated thoroughly, their is a very real possibility that Mary was in a local pub that night.
Possibly with Blotchy.

The part I emboldened is what I believe the evidence at face value reveals, and since Mary had no money that we know of other than the "coin" Maria gave her that night, it would also seem to indicate that someone purchased the alcohol that Mary drank to apparent excess.

One might wonder whether that was Blotchys task that night, to get Mary so inebriated and worn out from singing that she would be ready to retire shortly thereafter..... or whether we have evidence that she had at least one male friend that was just that. The fact that a man matching Blotchy is seen later that week and fled when he discovered he was being watched might indicate a friend unwilling to come forward to openly admit he was the man seen with Mary entering her room.....or, someone who had something to hide.

I personally believe that the Kelly murder is the only one within the Canonical that almost screams "killed by someone known to the victim." The location, the disposition of Mary when attacked....in bed, undressed,....the fact that she was in a love triangle she admitted to, and the fact that her face, her identity, was obliterated....a factor that in most murders is considered proof of a relationship of some kind between killer and prey. Oh yeah.....and he took her heart. Not a bladder. Not a uterus. Not a kidney....all which are conceivably edible by someone so inclined. All those were left "placed" around her corpse.

Heres the most probable scenario I can see based on what is known and accepted......Mary went out and met up with Blotchy at a pub. He spotted her some drinks, and relatively early, offered to escort her home. As a gesture of thanks she treated him like a guest, and entertained him with some singing....as a kind of thanks for his kindness. He leaves when the lights g out and the singing stopped...before 1:30am, and at approx. 3:45 someone new knocks lightly on her door...waking Diddles. She opens the door hungover and sleepy, and when she sees who is standing there, with the door still open, she exclaims "oh-murder" in the same way anyone of that period would voice discontent rather than signal an actual murder attempt. Elizabeth hears it "as if from the court", and Sarah hears it "as if at the door"...which sustains the aforementioned speculation about the open door.

Nothing more is heard by either woman as they listened for more sounds, even the woman who lived right upstairs. So....whomever she let enter didn't attack her right away, nor did she voice any further alarm that someone showed up at almost 4am. Again, both indicative of Mary letting someone in she knew. He kills her after she rolled over and faced the partition wall and fell back to sleep...he likely just sat and watched her and waited...maybe got into the bed behind her.

Im sure people will suggest this is just a hypothetical scenario without proof that it occurred in that manner...but ask yourself this, in what way does the above negate any known facts of that evening?

Cheers