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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Bury, W.H.

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  #1  
Old 10-29-2016, 03:28 PM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
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Default WH Bury Problems

I regard WH Bury as the strongest suspect for JTR. But what are the problems with Bury as a suspect?
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  #2  
Old 10-29-2016, 03:43 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Nothing physically connects him to the case, he didnt live in the immediate area, and IMHO mckenzie is a probable ripper victim, which of course would rule him out.

That being said he's In my top tier of most viable suspects.
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  #3  
Old 10-29-2016, 03:48 PM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
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Hi Abbey

Thanks for the response. I take your points but it is worth noting Bury did not live that far away from Whitechapel and he did own a horse and cart. And McKenzie is as you know far from guaranteed to be a Ripper victim, in fact common consensus is that McKenzie wasn't a Ripper victim.

Cheers John
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  #4  
Old 10-30-2016, 02:33 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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My niggling doubt with Bury lies in his behaviour after the fact. Walking into the cop shop with that cockanamy cover story was not the action of a man accustomed to getting away with murder. I'm aware that Bury almost got away with it, but that was due to the politics at the time, and not because of Bury's ingenuity. I also think there's a case to be made that Ellen Bury should've suffered a greater degree of post-mortem mutilation if her killer was the Ripper.

That said, it's problematic to make any argument for a suspect a priori, when he was never positively identified. Criminal profiling is far from an exact science and almost all of us are guilty of imposing our own biases and subjectivity on the case. Bury possesses the self-destructive streak associated with many serial killers, and he's the only named suspect supported by the facts, i.e. he was a killer, he left London shortly after the 1888 murders, he strangled his wife and performed abdominal mutilations. No other suspect comes close.
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  #5  
Old 10-30-2016, 04:10 AM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
My niggling doubt with Bury lies in his behaviour after the fact. Walking into the cop shop with that cockanamy cover story was not the action of a man accustomed to getting away with murder. I'm aware that Bury almost got away with it, but that was due to the politics at the time, and not because of Bury's ingenuity. I also think there's a case to be made that Ellen Bury should've suffered a greater degree of post-mortem mutilation if her killer was the Ripper.

That said, it's problematic to make any argument for a suspect a priori, when he was never positively identified. Criminal profiling is far from an exact science and almost all of us are guilty of imposing our own biases and subjectivity on the case. Bury possesses the self-destructive streak associated with many serial killers, and he's the only named suspect supported by the facts, i.e. he was a killer, he left London shortly after the 1888 murders, he strangled his wife and performed abdominal mutilations. No other suspect comes close.
Hi Harry

I take you're points however is the way Bury stuffed Ellen into trunk and left it there for around a week reportedly playing cards on it the actions of a one time wife murderer? Because it doesn't seem the sort of thing a one time wife murderer would do. Also it is worth noting Ellen was mutilated. If Bury had mutilated Ellen much more surely he would have been tried as Jack the Ripper. Bury was not that stupid. Bury's actions seem to me to be the actions of serial killer who has had a mental breakdown. Its is obvious to me and you that no other suspect comes close. There are of course very few proven violent knife murders among the other suspects let alone one with Jack's M.O. I can of course hear the cries off but he never cut her throat, he was a copycat killer and not JTR. To this my reply is but a copycat killer would not have strangled a victim. Pretty much everyone at the time believed the throat cutting was what killed Jack's victims.

Cheers John
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  #6  
Old 10-30-2016, 07:09 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
My niggling doubt with Bury lies in his behaviour after the fact. Walking into the cop shop with that cockanamy cover story was not the action of a man accustomed to getting away with murder. I'm aware that Bury almost got away with it, but that was due to the politics at the time, and not because of Bury's ingenuity. I also think there's a case to be made that Ellen Bury should've suffered a greater degree of post-mortem mutilation if her killer was the Ripper.

That said, it's problematic to make any argument for a suspect a priori, when he was never positively identified. Criminal profiling is far from an exact science and almost all of us are guilty of imposing our own biases and subjectivity on the case. Bury possesses the self-destructive streak associated with many serial killers, and he's the only named suspect supported by the facts, i.e. he was a killer, he left London shortly after the 1888 murders, he strangled his wife and performed abdominal mutilations. No other suspect comes close.
I see more of the major similarities than the minor differences. Proven murderer, victim is a woman,knife used, strangulation, but of course the main one-abdominal mutilation.

I think that his lame un ripper like way he got caught could be the fact that it's his wife killed in his place and that the pressure of it all finally caught up to him, along with his alcoholism, as in mentally he was losing it.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #7  
Old 10-30-2016, 07:10 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wheat View Post
I take you're points however is the way Bury stuffed Ellen into trunk and left it there for around a week reportedly playing cards on it the actions of a one time wife murderer? Because it doesn't seem the sort of thing a one time wife murderer would do
You'd be surprised, John. There have been many single murderers who have gone to great lengths to cover up their crimes. You should never underestimate the human ability to adapt in high-stress environments. A serial killer's every instinct would be to flee the scene of the crime. William Bury could've been on the first boat out of the country if he wanted to. Faced with the alternative of handing himself into the police, which is what he effectively did, it's got to be a no-brainer. Whether he was tried with the Ripper murders or just Ellen Bury, he still had a hangman's noose waiting for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wheat View Post
Also it is worth noting Ellen was mutilated. If Bury had mutilated Ellen much more surely he would have been tried as Jack the Ripper. Bury was not that stupid.
If that were the case, he wouldn't have mutilated her at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wheat View Post
Bury's actions seem to me to be the actions of serial killer who has had a mental breakdown
No argument there, and I'd daresay this is something that puts a lot of people off Bury as a suspect. Such an ignominious end isn't befitting of a legendary serial killer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wheat View Post
I can of course hear the cries off but he never cut her throat, he was a copycat killer and not JTR.
I don't think the lack of throat-cutting proves anything in regard to Bury as a suspect. The Ripper's situation called for dispatching his victims cleanly and efficiently. Not only to muffle their screams, but to facilitate exsanguination before the organ removal. Bury arguably didn't need to take such precautions in his basement flat.
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  #8  
Old 10-30-2016, 10:04 AM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
You'd be surprised, John. There have been many single murderers who have gone to great lengths to cover up their crimes. You should never underestimate the human ability to adapt in high-stress environments. A serial killer's every instinct would be to flee the scene of the crime. William Bury could've been on the first boat out of the country if he wanted to. Faced with the alternative of handing himself into the police, which is what he effectively did, it's got to be a no-brainer. Whether he was tried with the Ripper murders or just Ellen Bury, he still had a hangman's noose waiting for him.



If that were the case, he wouldn't have mutilated her at all.



No argument there, and I'd daresay this is something that puts a lot of people off Bury as a suspect. Such an ignominious end isn't befitting of a legendary serial killer.



I don't think the lack of throat-cutting proves anything in regard to Bury as a suspect. The Ripper's situation called for dispatching his victims cleanly and efficiently. Not only to muffle their screams, but to facilitate exsanguination before the organ removal. Bury arguably didn't need to take such precautions in his basement flat.
Hi Harry

Yes but he nearly got away with Ellen's murder. Yes but Bury did not mutilate Ellen that severely. Two reasons for this he's wasn't stupid and he seemed to be going through a mental breakdown. I suggest Bury didn't flee the country because he feared he would be tried as the Ripper. Bury seemed to believe his **** and bull story would be his best chance of escaping the noose and considering he nearly got off Ellen's murder he probably wasn't wrong. Let's be honest had the Ripper murders been committed a century later in 1988 and Bury had then murdered his wife in the same way he murdered Ellen in 1988 the chances of Bury not being charged for at least one of the Rippers crimes are virtually non existent.

Cheers John
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  #9  
Old 10-30-2016, 10:06 AM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
I see more of the major similarities than the minor differences. Proven murderer, victim is a woman,knife used, strangulation, but of course the main one-abdominal mutilation.

I think that his lame un ripper like way he got caught could be the fact that it's his wife killed in his place and that the pressure of it all finally caught up to him, along with his alcoholism, as in mentally he was losing it.
Hi Abby

I agree.

Cheers John
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  #10  
Old 11-01-2016, 07:09 PM
Columbo Columbo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wheat View Post
Hi Abbey

Thanks for the response. I take your points but it is worth noting Bury did not live that far away from Whitechapel and he did own a horse and cart. And McKenzie is as you know far from guaranteed to be a Ripper victim, in fact common consensus is that McKenzie wasn't a Ripper victim.

Cheers John
So why could he also not be considered for the torso murders? He owned a horse and cart, so why not?

Columbo
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