Did the Canonical 5 know each other

[DirectorDave]

I lived for two years in a crowded block of flats and at the end of that time I was still meeting people who had lived in the same block for as long as I had, but who I had never any memory of seeing, let alone meeting.

So for that reason - in the absence of any evidence at all that any of them knew any other of them even existed - which you acknowledge - I don't see how such a conclusion 'must be drawn'.

It's possible. I see it as being no more likely than it is unlikely.

We have telly and internet making closing the door an not engaging with neighbours slightly more attractive than what the Victorians had...a candle and a book...and these woman I suggest would have more in common with each other than we tend to do with our modern neighbours.

I've set the bar fairly low...in that alll that is required is that 2 of the C5 knew each other by sight...so if say oh I dunno Annie Chapman and Mary Jane Kelly knew each other as "the woman who drinks in the 10 Bells" and no more, not even friends then my theory holds.

I must draw that conclusion...for anyone else, other conclusions are available.

[etenguy]

Hello you all!

One modest view; even if Mary Kelly knew Annie Chapman, it doesn't mean any close relationship.

Since she - and the others of the canonical five - could have been her aunt, thinking about the age gap. So, probably they were in different circles in the East End.

All the best
Jukka

Absolutely, j.r-ahde. I was putting feelers out to see if someone had already done the research. If not, to get a sense of whether there was any mileage in conducting the research myself. There either will, or will not, be evidence that that the group knew each other or were friends. If it can be established one way or the other, the nature and closeness of any acquaintance can be explored. At this stage I was just hoping to get a sense of whether to pursue.

[etenguy]

Indeed, Jukka.

Thanks Sam, I'll read the full article when I get home.

I thought it might be worth researching whether there was a connection among the victims, but thought someone else may have done that already, in which case I would be interested to know what they found/concluded.

[DirectorDave]

Thanks Sam, I'll read the full article when I get home.

I thought it might be worth researching whether there was a connection among the victims, but thought someone else may have done that already, in which case I would be interested to know what they found/concluded.

Stephen Knight certainly claimed the c5 all knew each other....

"All these people presenting these killings as random maniac killings just do not consider that these woman all knew each other...2 of them lived in the same house...3 of them lived in the same street....and all of them rubbed shoulders daily in the same pubs".

I presume his evidence for this is in his book.

[Sam Flynn]

Stephen Knight certainly claimed the c5 all knew each other....

"All these people presenting these killings as random maniac killings just do not consider that these woman all knew each other...2 of them lived in the same house...3 of them lived in the same street....and all of them rubbed shoulders daily in the same pubs".

I presume his evidence for this is in his book.

It isn't, Dave. He presents no evidence for this whatsoever - it's all supposition. To be fair, we now know more about the victims' backgrounds and movements than Knight ever did, but he wasn't averse to passing speculation or pure invention off as fact. That's particularly likely to have been the case in this instance, given that the victims' being known to one another is a crucial ingredient of Knight's conspiracy theory.

[jerryd]

This is a very early report, published on the day Kelly was found dead, when all kinds of stories were circulating about her. In the very next paragraph of that report in the Echo, we read that:

"The murdered woman had one child, a little boy of between six and seven. The little fellow lived with his mother. This poor child was sent out this morning, when the mother returned to the room with the assassin. The gossip of the neighbourhood, or rather of the very court in which the house is situated, is to the effect that the man who is suspected of having committed the murder sent the child out to buy sweets and playing he found the place in commotion, for his mother had been discovered lifeless and bleeding, and the murder had fled."

Reader beware!

Hi Sam,

I wouldn't discount it completely though. Debs dug up some great stuff when researching the casual wards. Catherine Eddowes, Martha Tabram, Polly Nichols, Mary Ann Monk and others all stayed at the Newington Casual Ward throughout 1888.

And this was interesting too.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=10108 (post 3 by Debs)

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks, Jerry. I may have missed that info from Debs the first time round because I wasn't too active on the boards at that time. It's always worth reading her findings, so I've duly bookmarked the link

[etenguy]

Hi Sam,

I wouldn't discount it completely though. Debs dug up some great stuff when researching the casual wards. Catherine Eddowes, Martha Tabram, Polly Nichols, Mary Ann Monk and others all stayed at the Newington Casual Ward throughout 1888.

And this was interesting too.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=10108 (post 3 by Debs)

Thanks again, Jerry. More interesting information.

[Debra A]

Hi Sam,

I wouldn't discount it completely though. Debs dug up some great stuff when researching the casual wards. Catherine Eddowes, Martha Tabram, Polly Nichols, Mary Ann Monk and others all stayed at the Newington Casual Ward throughout 1888.

And this was interesting too.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=10108 (post 3 by Debs)

Hi Jerry, thanks for remembering this- Re Newington, not all through 1888 but spread over the years, but the point was the Newington casual ward registers were the only casual ward registers that have survived and I had the feeling that if the registers nearer home had survived a lot of these women would be in them- crossing paths in a demonstrable way.

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry, thanks for remembering this- Re Newington, not all through 1888 but spread over the years, but the point was the Newington casual ward registers were the only casual ward registers that have survived and I had the feeling that if the registers nearer home had survived a lot of these women would be in them- crossing paths in a demonstrable way.

I was impressed by the work you did Debs, so thank you for sharing it.

You say nearer to home and I know what you mean by that but, remember, Eddowes and Nichols had both lived very near the Newington Casual Ward before they ended up in Whitechapel. I have a hunch Mary Kelly did as well with the mention of the Elephant and Castle which was blocks away from Newington.

[etenguy]

Hi Jerry, thanks for remembering this- Re Newington, not all through 1888 but spread over the years, but the point was the Newington casual ward registers were the only casual ward registers that have survived and I had the feeling that if the registers nearer home had survived a lot of these women would be in them- crossing paths in a demonstrable way.

That is a plausible assumption. It might demonstrate the possibility that they had met and we could search for other evidence to help understand the nature of their acquaintance.

[Debra A]

I was impressed by the work you did Debs, so thank you for sharing it.

You say nearer to home and I know what you mean by that but, remember, Eddowes and Nichols had both lived very near the Newington Casual Ward before they ended up in Whitechapel. I have a hunch Mary Kelly did as well with the mention of the Elephant and Castle which was blocks away from Newington.

Thanks, Jerry.
Yes, it's true what you said about some of the victims living that way which probably makes it less of a significance. Also, Newington casual/vagrant ward was used as a one night stop-off for hawkers (which Annie Chapman, Martha Chapman and Catherine Eddowes all were) travelling to places like Stafford and Woolwich for a days work, probably before returning to their usual lodgings the next night. It's in the casual ward register that the George Hutchinson, groom was staying in 1884,spotted by Pat Marshall. I do wish the casual ward registers for other parish workhouses that had them had survived, I am sure we would see familiar names in the Whitechapel casual ward for example.

[Debra A]

That is a plausible assumption. It might demonstrate the possibility that they had met and we could search for other evidence to help understand the nature of their acquaintance.

Hi etenguy
I'm not sure the evidence to prove anything will necessarily be out there but it is worth looking. For example; looking through workhouse registers shows that Pearly Poll was admitted to the workhouse infirmary on exactly the same day that Joseph Barnett's brother John was, and that Poll regularly lodged at a lodging house at 4 North East Passage SGE which John Satchel had some hand in, another lodger there was Joseph Barnett but it doesn't tell us that any of them knew each other for sure. The biggest link would be the number of women connected to the case who stayed at 18 or 19 George Street, Spitalfields.

[Debra A]

Thanks, Jerry.
Yes, it's true what you said about some of the victims living that way which probably makes it less of a significance. Also, Newington casual/vagrant ward was used as a one night stop-off for hawkers (which Annie Chapman, Martha Chapman and Catherine Eddowes all were) travelling to places like Stafford and Woolwich for a days work, probably before returning to their usual lodgings the next night. It's in the casual ward register that the George Hutchinson, groom was staying in 1884,spotted by Pat Marshall. I do wish the casual ward registers for other parish workhouses that had them had survived, I am sure we would see familiar names in the Whitechapel casual ward for example.

That should read 'Stratford'

[MysterySinger]

Number 8 White's Row also shows regularly in the records as a home for many prostitutes. Yet I'm not sure any/many of the C5 used that address. It would be interesting to see what snippets others might be able to provide regarding number 8 from their research.