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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Bury, W.H.

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  #71  
Old 12-16-2014, 03:04 PM
curious curious is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyatt Earp View Post
3. There was a foot of intestine protruding from Ellen's belly, and based on Lt. Parr's trial testimony, Bury clearly feared a national manhunt for him as Jack the Ripper if he had fled the scene.
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Originally Posted by Errata View Post
3:Well, first of all, I'm not sure he had to especially fear being caught as Jack the Ripper, since simply killing his wife would get him hanged. Kill one woman, kill seven, your fate is the same. I don't think he bluffed because he was afraid of being called Jack the Ripper, I think he bluffed because he didn't want to go to jail at all. A guy who kills one time does not need extra reasons to want to not get caught. Although any guy who cut up a woman was going to have some speculation whether or not he was the Ripper. He did what most guys who cut up their wives do. He lied. That doesn't make him Jack. That makes him normal.

Jack had coping mechanisms.
Something has just occurred to me based on what Wyatt Earp has written. I believe some others on the board have expressed this before, so it's nothing new, except it just clicked with me.

Jack had coping mechanisms for when he was a nameless face in the crowd.

However, after the killing of Ellen, he would not be nameless, which is why he feared the manhunt.

Let's say that Bury was Jack, had killed all those women, then vanished -- faceless and unknown -- into the crowd that was London. He could go anywhere and not look over his shoulder because he was unknown.

HOWEVER, the killing of his wife changed that. Suddenly, it would be known who he was.

He feared a manhunt because he had, probably very anxiously, watched the increasing numbers of policemen moving into Whitechapel. Perhaps he was almost caught at one point and dealt with that terror. That would likely be why he insisted they move. The noose was tightening. He didn't know how long it would be before someone saw him and realized a witness description was of him.

His departure from London, taking Ellen with him, has always seemed particularly curious to me as it made no real sense. Why not just leave her? Why not kill her and then leave her body as a Ripper victim? Why not push her overboard the ferry?

I don't think he meant to kill her, even when the money was gone. He really had no one.

But suddenly, there she was dead.

He tried not to slice her as Jack did, but he was compelled -- his intelligence warring with his need. He was able to control himself somewhat.

Doesn't his fearing a national manhunt argue for him being Jack the Ripper?

If he were Jack the Ripper, he would have known it. He would have felt the tightening of the noose in London (even when he managed to escape). In London he had been anonymous, able to just slip back into his life.

HOWEVER, once his wife lay dead and he came to himself, he suddenly had no where to go. He could not know that people would be arguing the differences in this murder and the others. It would never have occurred to him that the authorities might decide she did not die by Jack's hand. Jack had no way of knowing Ellen would not he placed in his column.

Since he'd killed them all, what he saw was the difference of going from unknown and nameless to being identified. Something all of London wanted.

It was simple. To Bury, Jack the Ripper had killed again, now everyone would know his name . . .

----------
Interesting. Before today, I always thought that Bury brought up JtR because he always wanted to be more than he really was. Now, I'm not so sure. . . .

I'm not sure I've explained this well enough for you to get my point . . .

curious
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  #72  
Old 12-16-2014, 04:20 PM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
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To Curious

I think you are starting to think that maybe Bury thought he'd be arrested and tried as Jack the Ripper because he was Jack the Ripper. Or have I misunderstood your post?

Cheers John
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  #73  
Old 12-16-2014, 04:27 PM
curious curious is offline
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Originally Posted by John Wheat View Post
To Curious

I think you are starting to think that maybe Bury thought he'd be arrested and tried as Jack the Ripper because he was Jack the Ripper. Or have I misunderstood your post?

Cheers John
Hi, John,
He had lived in terror of having his identity discovered for months.

I think he thought it would be obvious to everyone.
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  #74  
Old 12-16-2014, 04:48 PM
Wyatt Earp Wyatt Earp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curious View Post
Something has just occurred to me based on what Wyatt Earp has written. I believe some others on the board have expressed this before, so it's nothing new, except it just clicked with me.

Jack had coping mechanisms for when he was a nameless face in the crowd.

However, after the killing of Ellen, he would not be nameless, which is why he feared the manhunt.

Let's say that Bury was Jack, had killed all those women, then vanished -- faceless and unknown -- into the crowd that was London. He could go anywhere and not look over his shoulder because he was unknown.

HOWEVER, the killing of his wife changed that. Suddenly, it would be known who he was.

He feared a manhunt because he had, probably very anxiously, watched the increasing numbers of policemen moving into Whitechapel. Perhaps he was almost caught at one point and dealt with that terror. That would likely be why he insisted they move. The noose was tightening. He didn't know how long it would be before someone saw him and realized a witness description was of him.

His departure from London, taking Ellen with him, has always seemed particularly curious to me as it made no real sense. Why not just leave her? Why not kill her and then leave her body as a Ripper victim? Why not push her overboard the ferry?

I don't think he meant to kill her, even when the money was gone. He really had no one.

But suddenly, there she was dead.

He tried not to slice her as Jack did, but he was compelled -- his intelligence warring with his need. He was able to control himself somewhat.

Doesn't his fearing a national manhunt argue for him being Jack the Ripper?

If he were Jack the Ripper, he would have known it. He would have felt the tightening of the noose in London (even when he managed to escape). In London he had been anonymous, able to just slip back into his life.

HOWEVER, once his wife lay dead and he came to himself, he suddenly had no where to go. He could not know that people would be arguing the differences in this murder and the others. It would never have occurred to him that the authorities might decide she did not die by Jack's hand. Jack had no way of knowing Ellen would not he placed in his column.

Since he'd killed them all, what he saw was the difference of going from unknown and nameless to being identified. Something all of London wanted.

It was simple. To Bury, Jack the Ripper had killed again, now everyone would know his name . . .

----------
Interesting. Before today, I always thought that Bury brought up JtR because he always wanted to be more than he really was. Now, I'm not so sure. . . .

I'm not sure I've explained this well enough for you to get my point . . .

curious
Curious, this is a great post. You've got some terrific stuff in here.
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  #75  
Old 12-16-2014, 05:44 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Curious post has made me think and I have a question.

Why did bury if not the ripper leave London?
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #76  
Old 12-17-2014, 08:53 AM
curious curious is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Curious post has made me think and I have a question.

Why did bury if not the ripper leave London?
Hi, Abby,
Good question, and others have wondered that.

So far as I know there is only speculation why Bury left not just London, but the country.

Plus, remember, he went to the trouble of forging a letter(s) to prove he had a job in Dundee. Why in the world do such a thing?

Some have suggested that Bury relocated to get Ellen away from her family in order to kill her, using the size of the boxes as proof he intended to murder her and stuff her in one even before he left London.

Now, if he wanted rid of Ellen, why not just leave? Even if he wanted the few trinkets she had left, he could have beaten her (as he seemed to have done), grabbed the box and moved simply to another section of London -- or made the trip to Dundee alone. No apparent reason to take her at all.

As for the large trunks he ordered made, I can think of a couple of reasons:

1. Perhaps he had no idea how much room their things would need and he would rather have too much room than too little. That way, they could always add things along their journey.

2. Bury seems to me to have always liked to be thought more than he was. Perhaps the extra large cases were to impress fellow travelers. (It is this trait that has made me consider his almost confession as JtR in line with his character.)

Or a combination of the two.

Why leave London if he were not the Ripper?

I donít have an answer.

If he were the Ripper, I think his own terror of being caught could certainly have fueled his departure. Perhaps he had been seen with one of the victims, perhaps one of the descriptions was too close.

He was becoming paranoid.

His own guilt could have caused him to think people were looking at him, knowingly. He left the country to get away from Jack the Ripper, but learned that the Dundee papers had Jack the Ripper stories and Scottish folks were too interested in JtR.

Living in the port, itís likely he encountered sailors who traveled all over and he learned that JtR was known about all over the world. There seemed to be no escaping.

It seems to me that had Bury intended to kill Ellen, he would never have taken an apartment and settled in -- under his own name. That fact alone suggests to me that he had no intention of killing Ellen. His intention appears to have been to get out of London, out of England.

Another thought is that William Henry Bury had been ďSOMEONEĒ all his life. He was the child whose arrival appeared to have brought disaster to his family. His sister died of seizures, his father was killed in a horrific cart accident and his mother died in an insane asylum, all within months of his birth.

Donít you think that from before he could remember, people were looking at him, stopped talking when he came into a room or started whispering? He saw either horror from the superstitious or sympathy from the kind hearted.

How would those years of being known have affected his seeming belief following Ellenís murder that there was no where he could go to hide?

I don't have the answer to your question or hundreds of others . . . hope others will comment here.

curious
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  #77  
Old 12-17-2014, 09:51 AM
Errata Errata is offline
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My books are in the other room, but wasn't Bury essentially a deadbeat? He was a drunk, he was violent, he had been fired for theft a couple times, he was an occasional peddler, and the money they were living on was his wife's. I mean, in no one's view is this a stable guy. And he had picked up and moved like, four times by the time he hit London. He'd been sort of on the run since about 1885. So I'm not sure the move out of the country was significant, given that he had lived in like, five other English cities at that point. Which is a little unusual.

If the original plan was to move to Brisbane, then the crates made sense. Easier to ship crates ahead than travel with luggage, and people tend to over pack since they don't know what will be available of a different continent. Since they instead moved to Dundee, the crates made less sense, but they had been bought and paid for.

But this is a guy who packs up and leaves when things get tough. That's his thing. Of course he forges papers to get his wife to go with him. He doesn't care what she thinks or what she wants. He wants her to go with him. He will do what is necessary to make that happen.

And this is a guy with legitimate abandonment issues. And he is a classic abuser. So that means that once someone is tied to him, they aren't allowed to leave. Ellen is his to do with what he likes. If he wants to beat her, he can. Lie to her, cheat on her, trick her, even kill her. She belongs to him. He decides when things are over. Not her. And this is, as we all know, pretty typical in abusive relationships. It's not surprising that he killed her. I think that was inevitable. I think the murder was triggered. My guess is she told him she was leaving him. That was not allowed. And people who view another person as a possession as opposed to a human have a different emotional response to the loss. He lost his favorite punching bag. Not Ellen the woman who was his companion. I think he was pretty detached after the murder.

If the question is why he left London, I think the answer is "because that's what he does when things get hard". Right before he left, he had been fired again, he was having blow up fights with his wife, and she had cashed out an investment. When they left the money was gone. He was frustrated, self absorbed, entitled, broke, angry and emasculated. That's enough reason for anyone to decide to just chuck it and start over somewhere else. Especially if you've done it a few times before. I don't think it's odd that he left. And I don't think it's odd that he didn't think twice about conning his wife into joining him. And I don't think it's odd that he ended up killing her three weeks later. That's a lot of crap flung her way, and it was inevitable that she would confront him. I think he genuinely meant to make it right when they got to Dundee. But as usually happens to people desperate to control people, it got away from him, and he couldn't recover.
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  #78  
Old 12-17-2014, 11:02 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curious View Post
Hi, Abby,
Good question, and others have wondered that.

So far as I know there is only speculation why Bury left not just London, but the country.

Plus, remember, he went to the trouble of forging a letter(s) to prove he had a job in Dundee. Why in the world do such a thing?

Some have suggested that Bury relocated to get Ellen away from her family in order to kill her, using the size of the boxes as proof he intended to murder her and stuff her in one even before he left London.

Now, if he wanted rid of Ellen, why not just leave? Even if he wanted the few trinkets she had left, he could have beaten her (as he seemed to have done), grabbed the box and moved simply to another section of London -- or made the trip to Dundee alone. No apparent reason to take her at all.

As for the large trunks he ordered made, I can think of a couple of reasons:

1. Perhaps he had no idea how much room their things would need and he would rather have too much room than too little. That way, they could always add things along their journey.

2. Bury seems to me to have always liked to be thought more than he was. Perhaps the extra large cases were to impress fellow travelers. (It is this trait that has made me consider his almost confession as JtR in line with his character.)

Or a combination of the two.

Why leave London if he were not the Ripper?

I donít have an answer.

If he were the Ripper, I think his own terror of being caught could certainly have fueled his departure. Perhaps he had been seen with one of the victims, perhaps one of the descriptions was too close.

He was becoming paranoid.

His own guilt could have caused him to think people were looking at him, knowingly. He left the country to get away from Jack the Ripper, but learned that the Dundee papers had Jack the Ripper stories and Scottish folks were too interested in JtR.

Living in the port, itís likely he encountered sailors who traveled all over and he learned that JtR was known about all over the world. There seemed to be no escaping.

It seems to me that had Bury intended to kill Ellen, he would never have taken an apartment and settled in -- under his own name. That fact alone suggests to me that he had no intention of killing Ellen. His intention appears to have been to get out of London, out of England.

Another thought is that William Henry Bury had been ďSOMEONEĒ all his life. He was the child whose arrival appeared to have brought disaster to his family. His sister died of seizures, his father was killed in a horrific cart accident and his mother died in an insane asylum, all within months of his birth.

Donít you think that from before he could remember, people were looking at him, stopped talking when he came into a room or started whispering? He saw either horror from the superstitious or sympathy from the kind hearted.

How would those years of being known have affected his seeming belief following Ellenís murder that there was no where he could go to hide?

I don't have the answer to your question or hundreds of others . . . hope others will comment here.

curious
Thanks Curious
a lot of good points and great questions.
One of the things that has always confused me about Bury is that for the life of me, I just cant reconcile this thuggish brute a drunk and loser with his letters. Well written, fluent, the handwriting almost feminine like. And forging letters of employment.

something more than meets the eye is going on with this cat.


Also, it doesn't seem like he planned to murder his wife, or left London in order to. I honestly believe it was not planned, but happened in a drunken rage.

But why the abdominal injuries? why???
and the lame attempt at innocence? I think he was at the end of his rope and unraveling mentally. And/Or he might have been on a prolonged drinking binge and was still on it when he went to the police. I mean here is a guy who had the foresight and cunning to forge employment letters and con his wife on moving out of the country-pretty sophisticated planning and lying.
Only to basically turn himself in. its not only unripperlike. its un bury like.

But then the coherent confession letter. Bewildering.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #79  
Old 12-17-2014, 11:06 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Errata View Post
My books are in the other room, but wasn't Bury essentially a deadbeat? He was a drunk, he was violent, he had been fired for theft a couple times, he was an occasional peddler, and the money they were living on was his wife's. I mean, in no one's view is this a stable guy. And he had picked up and moved like, four times by the time he hit London. He'd been sort of on the run since about 1885. So I'm not sure the move out of the country was significant, given that he had lived in like, five other English cities at that point. Which is a little unusual.

If the original plan was to move to Brisbane, then the crates made sense. Easier to ship crates ahead than travel with luggage, and people tend to over pack since they don't know what will be available of a different continent. Since they instead moved to Dundee, the crates made less sense, but they had been bought and paid for.

But this is a guy who packs up and leaves when things get tough. That's his thing. Of course he forges papers to get his wife to go with him. He doesn't care what she thinks or what she wants. He wants her to go with him. He will do what is necessary to make that happen.

And this is a guy with legitimate abandonment issues. And he is a classic abuser. So that means that once someone is tied to him, they aren't allowed to leave. Ellen is his to do with what he likes. If he wants to beat her, he can. Lie to her, cheat on her, trick her, even kill her. She belongs to him. He decides when things are over. Not her. And this is, as we all know, pretty typical in abusive relationships. It's not surprising that he killed her. I think that was inevitable. I think the murder was triggered. My guess is she told him she was leaving him. That was not allowed. And people who view another person as a possession as opposed to a human have a different emotional response to the loss. He lost his favorite punching bag. Not Ellen the woman who was his companion. I think he was pretty detached after the murder.

If the question is why he left London, I think the answer is "because that's what he does when things get hard". Right before he left, he had been fired again, he was having blow up fights with his wife, and she had cashed out an investment. When they left the money was gone. He was frustrated, self absorbed, entitled, broke, angry and emasculated. That's enough reason for anyone to decide to just chuck it and start over somewhere else. Especially if you've done it a few times before. I don't think it's odd that he left. And I don't think it's odd that he didn't think twice about conning his wife into joining him. And I don't think it's odd that he ended up killing her three weeks later. That's a lot of crap flung her way, and it was inevitable that she would confront him. I think he genuinely meant to make it right when they got to Dundee. But as usually happens to people desperate to control people, it got away from him, and he couldn't recover.
Good post. Don't necessarily agree with you on your previous posts and why you rule Bury out-but this is a good explanation for his behavior if he wasn't the ripper.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #80  
Old 12-17-2014, 01:06 PM
curious curious is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
I mean here is a guy who had the foresight and cunning to forge employment letters and con his wife on moving out of the country-pretty sophisticated planning and lying.
Only to basically turn himself in. its not only unripperlike. its un bury like.

Exactly! What was going on with him?

I must confess I don't know, and I have difficulty reconciling his ending with how I think JtR would have acted, but then . . . there is that cunning, capable-of-planning side of him that could have been JtR -- indeed, almost screams that he's perfectly capable of all JtR is thought to have done.

Very strange.

Could killing his own wife have just broken something inside him? was he still in shock? Is that a possible explanation?

Did he have a split personality -- a for-real one?

curious

Last edited by curious : 12-17-2014 at 01:09 PM.
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