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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #211  
Old 04-24-2017, 09:52 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Both had the same approximate time.
But did they?

According to the Echo's report of the inquest, Prater said:

"A black kitten, of which I am very fond, came to my bed, and rubbed itself against my face....it tried to get into the bed, and awoke me. That must have been about half-past four, as I heard the clock chiming. I pushed the kitten away...And, just as I pushed the kitten away I heard, "Oh! Murder!" It was as if it was a nightmare. It was just "Oh! Oh! (in a faint, gasping way) - Murder!"

So Prater is very clear, she heard the cry literally immediately after she heard "the clock" (which can only be the Spitalfields clock) chime (which she thought was the chime at 4.30).

But then according to the same report of the inquest, Lewis said:

"I woke at about half-past three. I heard Spitalfields clock strike...I could not sleep. I sat awake from then until a little before four o'clock, when I heard a female voice. It was a scream."

So, even allowing for the fact that Prater might have meant 3.30 or 4.00 rather than 4.30, the two accounts are completely different because Lewis said she heard the cry before 4am, and thus BEFORE the strike of the clock at that time, whereas Prater said she heard the cry AFTER the strike of the clock.

If their evidence is accurate they cannot have heard the same cry.
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  #212  
Old 04-24-2017, 09:58 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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...cue Diddles...
I appreciate that you have a long held theory that the cat was disturbed and thus woke Prater but I can't see that it has much to recommend it.

What awoke Prater was the cat rubbing her face and trying to get into her bed. There is nothing to suggest it had been alarmed or disturbed. Most importantly, Prater did not make any such suggestion.

Did Prater's cat wake her every single time it heard a noise of someone tapping on a door or window in the busy court? That seems unlikely. Mary Ann Cox said she heard several men going in and out that night alone.
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  #213  
Old 04-24-2017, 10:19 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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But did they?

According to the Echo's report of the inquest, Prater said:

"A black kitten, of which I am very fond, came to my bed, and rubbed itself against my face....it tried to get into the bed, and awoke me. That must have been about half-past four, as I heard the clock chiming. I pushed the kitten away...And, just as I pushed the kitten away I heard, "Oh! Murder!" It was as if it was a nightmare. It was just "Oh! Oh! (in a faint, gasping way) - Murder!"

So Prater is very clear, she heard the cry literally immediately after she heard "the clock" (which can only be the Spitalfields clock) chime (which she thought was the chime at 4.30).

But then according to the same report of the inquest, Lewis said:

"I woke at about half-past three. I heard Spitalfields clock strike...I could not sleep. I sat awake from then until a little before four o'clock, when I heard a female voice. It was a scream."

So, even allowing for the fact that Prater might have meant 3.30 or 4.00 rather than 4.30, the two accounts are completely different because Lewis said she heard the cry before 4am, and thus BEFORE the strike of the clock at that time, whereas Prater said she heard the cry AFTER the strike of the clock.

If their evidence is accurate they cannot have heard the same cry.
From Elizabeth at the Inquest" A kitten disturbed me about half-past three o'clock or a quarter to four. As I was turning round I heard a suppressed cry of "Oh - murder!" in a faint voice. It seemed to proceed from the court."

So she heard it around 3:45.

From Sarah at the Inquest:"I sat awake until nearly four, when I heard a female's voice shouting "Murder" loudly. It seemed like the voice of a young woman. It sounded at our door."

Not inconsistent with Elizabeth at all.

Your suggestion that they heard different cries is interesting but contrary to the accepted evidence. There were not 2 separate cries of murder that night around 3:45.
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  #214  
Old 04-24-2017, 10:28 AM
John G John G is offline
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From Elizabeth at the Inquest" A kitten disturbed me about half-past three o'clock or a quarter to four. As I was turning round I heard a suppressed cry of "Oh - murder!" in a faint voice. It seemed to proceed from the court."

So she heard it around 3:45.

From Sarah at the Inquest:"I sat awake until nearly four, when I heard a female's voice shouting "Murder" loudly. It seemed like the voice of a young woman. It sounded at our door."

Not inconsistent with Elizabeth at all.

Your suggestion that they heard different cries is interesting but contrary to the accepted evidence. There were not 2 separate cries of murder that night around 3:45.
"Faint cry" and "seemed to proceed from the court" is all a bit vague, don't you think?
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Old 04-24-2017, 10:31 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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So she heard it around 3:45.
But if you are referring to her deposition, Prater is recorded as saying "I noticed the lodging house was out, so it was after 4 probably". That's not 3.45 is it?
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  #216  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:02 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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But if you are referring to her deposition, Prater is recorded as saying "I noticed the lodging house was out, so it was after 4 probably". That's not 3.45 is it?
From The Inquest transcripts in the Telegraph on Nov 13th..."A kitten disturbed me about half-past three o'clock or a quarter to four."
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  #217  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:07 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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"Faint cry" and "seemed to proceed from the court" is all a bit vague, don't you think?
Not if she heard it through an open window and if the voice was directing the sound waves back into the court. The bouncing waves would be faint by the time they reached her.

The faint cry is also indicative of what I suggested earlier...she wasn't crying out for help.
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  #218  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:11 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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From The Inquest transcripts in the Telegraph on Nov 13th..."A kitten disturbed me about half-past three o'clock or a quarter to four."
But we see from her deposition that she then corrected herself:

"I slept soundly until a kitten disturbed me about 3.30 to 4. I noticed the lodging house light was out, so it was after 4 probably - I heard a cry of oh! Murder!"

And, as I asked you earlier, "after 4" is not 3.45 is it?
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  #219  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:13 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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The faint cry is also indicative of what I suggested earlier...she wasn't crying out for help.
Oh it was a "faint cry" was it?

That's odd because according to the deposition of Sarah Lewis:

"a little before 4 I heard a female voice shout loudly one Murder!"

The sound is then described as a "scream".
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Old 04-24-2017, 11:27 AM
John G John G is offline
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Not if she heard it through an open window and if the voice was directing the sound waves back into the court. The bouncing waves would be faint by the time they reached her.

The faint cry is also indicative of what I suggested earlier...she wasn't crying out for help.
Well, there are all sorts of possibilities. However, the fact is she couldn't even be sure that the sound emanated from the court, let alone a specific room.
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