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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #131  
Old 04-21-2017, 02:44 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
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No, I don't lean towards a daylight morning murder at all. In the context of a cry of murder being a frequent occurrence, what I recognise is how easy it is to wake up having heard a cry of murder (which was ignored because it sounded like all the other cries) then learn there was a murder during the night and connect the two events which may not in fact be connected. It's a very common human reaction. My views are wholly unconnected to any thoughts about the time of Kelly's murder, just to question whether it was necessarily at that particular time.
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  #132  
Old 04-21-2017, 02:47 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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I'd agree that a cry of murder in the general neighbourhood on any old night is one thing, but the "Miller's Court Cry" might be quite another. In this case, the cry apparently emanated in the direction of Kelly's room, at a time not incongruent with the possible time of Kelly's death. These factors may elevate the significance of the "Miller's Court Cry" above those cries of a less nefarious nature.
But a time "not incongruent with the possible time of Kelly's death" is effectively the entire night.

Yes, according to Sarah Lewis in her oral testimony, the cry "seemed" to come from the direction of Kelly's room but that was said after knowing that Kelly had been murdered in that room. So it was easy for her to say this. I happen think it's impossible to pinpoint where such sounds are coming from (as humans are not bats). Prater who was right above Kelly's room could only say it was "close by". In her written statement, Lewis herself only said it "seemed to be not far away". Did Lewis actually think it had come from Kelly's room at the time she heard it? Almost certainly not; as a non-resident she probably didn't even know where Kelly's room was.

So I disagree that there are any factors which elevate the significance of the cry above all the other cries that were regularly heard at night in that neighbourhood.

Prater and Lewis might have heard Kelly being murdered but then again they might not.
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  #133  
Old 04-21-2017, 03:16 PM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Not in my opinion Abby because Kelly was hardly likely to have been hoping to attract a passing police officer in Millers Court. The way I read the Star story is that people had to shout "murder" long and hard to attract the attention of a constable if there was a fight but that was in the context of a fight in a lodging house, if you look at the whole story. I would still have expected an instinctive reaction of a woman being attacked by a man with a knife to be a scream (of help).
There is a school of thought that says, if you really wanted to attract people's attention (and had sufficient presence of mind), you should shout "Fire!".
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  #134  
Old 04-21-2017, 03:50 PM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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Like the old joke about the Irishman in front of a firing squad.
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  #135  
Old 04-21-2017, 04:01 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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But a time "not incongruent with the possible time of Kelly's death" is effectively the entire night.
As opposed to a night on which a murder did not occur in the immediate vicinity of said cry? Doubtful.
Quote:
Prater and Lewis might have heard Kelly being murdered but then again they might not.
I agree, but it's by no means as 50:50 as one might suppose, if one took the view that "such cries were often heard in the neighbourhood" to apply in general terms. The "neighbourhood" is one thing, but a cry of "Murder!" emanating from Miller's Court itself (even the deceased's room), on the night of a murder, is quite another.
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  #136  
Old 04-21-2017, 04:52 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Given Kelly's French pretensions, it might even have been "Ô merde!".

Just kidding.
Actually, why couldn't it have been????
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  #137  
Old 04-21-2017, 04:56 PM
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Following the murder of Martha Tabram, Francis Hewitt, the superintendent of the George Yard Buildings, and his wife, told a reporter for the East London Observer (as published on 18 August 1888):

'the district round here is rather rough, and cries of 'Murder' are of frequent, if not nightly, occurrence in the district.'

Thus corroborating the evidence of Elizabeth Prater some three months later.
Just why I've never understood the issue.

It is, in my opinion, clear that it wasn't unusual for a cry of murder to be hears in Whitechapel
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  #138  
Old 04-21-2017, 07:29 PM
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Oy! Morty!
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  #139  
Old 04-22-2017, 01:01 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Quote:
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As opposed to a night on which a murder did not occur in the immediate vicinity of said cry?
Again I'm afraid don't follow the argument Sam. The evidence is that a cry of murder was a common occurrence. Therefore there was nothing special or unusual about a cry of murder occurring during the night of 9 November 1888. So what is it about that particular cry that distinguishes it from all the other cries on all the other nights? The answer seems to be nothing.
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  #140  
Old 04-22-2017, 01:03 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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As opposed to a night on which a murder did not occur in the immediate vicinity of said cry? Doubtful.I agree, but it's by no means as 50:50 as one might suppose, if one took the view that "such cries were often heard in the neighbourhood" to apply in general terms. The "neighbourhood" is one thing, but a cry of "Murder!" emanating from Miller's Court itself (even the deceased's room), on the night of a murder, is quite another.
But surely the "neighbourhood" being referred to by Prater was Milers Court, or at least "close by" to her room in 26 Dorset Street, which is where the only reliable evidence places the cry on the night of the murder.
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