Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by RockySullivan 8 minutes ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by jerryd 1 hour and 15 minutes ago.
General Suspect Discussion: H H holmes - by Pcdunn 2 hours ago.
Tumblety, Francis: Tumblety - Hermaphrodite. - by Steadmund Brand 3 hours ago.
Tumblety, Francis: Tumblety - Hermaphrodite. - by Abby Normal 5 hours ago.
Witnesses: Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram? - by Abby Normal 5 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Witnesses: Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram? - (11 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: H H holmes - (3 posts)
Tumblety, Francis: Tumblety - Hermaphrodite. - (2 posts)
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - (2 posts)
Elizabeth Stride: Elizabeth's murder and the double event - (1 posts)
General Discussion: Albert Backert - did he emigrate? - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Social Chat > Other Mysteries > A6 Murders

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #3651  
Old 11-10-2016, 10:49 AM
cobalt cobalt is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 194
Default

NickB,
I have always assumed the murderer was smoking during the journey, hence the stop for cigarettes. Maybe I am wrong on this detail, but if he did then he would have had to remove his handkerchief while doing so, or lift it up at the very least.

Derrick,
There is an instinctive desire for us to assume the two unidentified prints belonged to the murderer. Perhaps they did. But the mundane reality is that they were just as likely to have come from innocent contact by a friend of the family that the police were not aware had been in the car, or even a car mechanic doing something like an MOT. I am sure many of us would have fingerprints in our car whose provenance we would struggle to explain.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3652  
Old 11-10-2016, 11:25 AM
j.kettle1 j.kettle1 is offline
Constable
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Cheshire
Posts: 64
Default

Quote:
Bar 2 finger-marks which belonged neither to Hanratty nor Alphon.
Thank you for the correction, Derrick.
Do you happen to know if any were found on the steering wheel, or for that matter where any of the fingerprints were found in the MM?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3653  
Old 11-10-2016, 01:07 PM
moste moste is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Vancouver Island British Columbia.
Posts: 387
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
NickB,
I have always assumed the murderer was smoking during the journey, hence the stop for cigarettes. Maybe I am wrong on this detail, but if he did then he would have had to remove his handkerchief while doing so, or lift it up at the very least.

Derrick,
There is an instinctive desire for us to assume the two unidentified prints belonged to the murderer. Perhaps they did. But the mundane reality is that they were just as likely to have come from innocent contact by a friend of the family that the police were not aware had been in the car, or even a car mechanic doing something like an MOT. I am sure many of us would have fingerprints in our car whose provenance we would struggle to explain.
I think it was pretty much accepted that the assailant did not care for smoking , and Storie has said ,'I lit two cigarettes, one for Mike and when asked if he wanted one, the man took the other,I don't know if he smoked it though'.This being the case, I struggle with why the killer would be so accommodating, and understanding of Gregstens smoking habit to stop specifically to buy cigs!

Last edited by moste : 11-10-2016 at 01:24 PM. Reason: Clarification of final sentence
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3654  
Old 11-10-2016, 01:41 PM
cobalt cobalt is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 194
Default

That's a fair point Moste. Perhaps Hanratty allowed them cigarettes for relaxation, to keep them co-operative, but then there is still the overwhelming question of what on earth his purpose was of being in the car in the first place. To keep them co-operative for what?

Was his motive financial? Clearly not. He took no money and even abandoned the car.

Was his motive sexual? Unlikely, although he did, after several hours, assault Valerie Storie. I am no expert in this field but I understand that sexual arousal can be linked to acts of extreme violence. If this is credible, then the motive would not be sexual, but rather that the sexual assault was a chain reaction to the shooting of Gregsten.

Which brings us no nearer the motive of the murderer entering the car in the first place. Like Moste I am not convinced of the cornfield story. It was odd in 1961, and despite all the crimes we have had to endure reading about in the intervening years, many of them apparently bizarre, there is still something deeply unsatisfactory about the alleged motive for the A6 case.

Why did Hanratty not 'upgrade' from burglary to armed robbery? That might have been a logical move. Why not roll over the odd petrol station which in these days had no CCTV, and were often family owned?

Why go for double murder with no robbery at all? It is totally without sense. OK Hanratty was educationally backward (as we expressed it at the time) but in terms of profit/illegality he was a sharp enough character and driving better cars than my father back in 1961. In fact my old man had a Lambretta scooter until 1964.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3655  
Old 11-10-2016, 03:36 PM
OneRound OneRound is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 403
Default

Hi Cobalt,

As for motive or at least what caused the murderer to act the way he did, I speculated some time ago as to whether his behaviour might have resulted from him taking drugs.

I'm no expert in this area but several factors appear to suggest a possibility. Bulging eyes. Incessant chatter and irrational conversation. Hunger. Need for sleep. Sexual arousal.

Add to that, I would guess that drugs and particularly pills to pop were starting to be illegally sold around the time of this crime.

Just thoughts but no one has come up with any other compelling reason or motive to satisfy me over the years.

Best regards,

OneRound
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3656  
Old 11-11-2016, 05:30 AM
OneRound OneRound is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 403
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRound View Post
Hi Cobalt,

As for motive or at least what caused the murderer to act the way he did, I speculated some time ago as to whether his behaviour might have resulted from him taking drugs.

I'm no expert in this area but several factors appear to suggest a possibility. Bulging eyes. Incessant chatter and irrational conversation. Hunger. Need for sleep. Sexual arousal.

Add to that, I would guess that drugs and particularly pills to pop were starting to be illegally sold around the time of this crime.

Just thoughts but no one has come up with any other compelling reason or motive to satisfy me over the years.

Best regards,

OneRound
Glad everyone is convinced by that.

Having just looked at my post a couple of years back reflecting this speculation, I note other factors I included then were impaired ability to drive and lack of logical thought throughout the whole encounter.

As stated yesterday, just my thoughts and I'm certainly not going to die in a ditch over them. Not even the most likely reason in my own book for the kidnapper's actions but not something I feel should be totally excluded.

Best regards,

OneRound
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3657  
Old 11-11-2016, 06:05 AM
Graham Graham is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Midlands
Posts: 3,067
Default

Hi OR,

I wouldn't totally rule out your suggestion that JH was on drugs. At that time amphetamines (Purple Hearts, Black Bombers, etc) were becoming fashionable, and I think were not actually illegal and were apparently sometimes prescribed by GP's as a general pick-me-up. My first 'exposure' to London was around 1963 when I used to stay at my brother's place in Chelsea, and more than once I was offered what I later found out were Purple Hearts. The only thing I'd say about JH is that according to his family he was a non-smoker and drank very little, so perhaps taking 'uppers' had no appeal for him; but on the other hand, he did patronise Soho clubs, so I'd guess it can't be ruled out that he had some exposure to what was available 'under the counter'.

Graham
__________________
We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3658  
Old 11-11-2016, 03:05 PM
moste moste is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Vancouver Island British Columbia.
Posts: 387
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRound View Post
Glad everyone is convinced by that.

Having just looked at my post a couple of years back reflecting this speculation, I note other factors I included then were impaired ability to drive and lack of logical thought throughout the whole encounter.

As stated yesterday, just my thoughts and I'm certainly not going to die in a ditch over them. Not even the most likely reason in my own book for the kidnapper's actions but not something I feel should be totally excluded.

Best regards,

OneRound
Hhmmm. Also ,not to be totally excluded, given the something of a fog around Gregstens past.The apparent hopelessness of his mental condition. The famous Tavistock clinics inability to treat him and only when, the intense headaches and depression,were becoming so unbearable ,did he deny his religious teachings ,and seek out medical help)
Watford memorial hospital could not fare any better even after seeing him for a year.His own doctor simply prescribed tranquilizers.
According to Dr.John Sutherland,of the Tavistock Clinic,'Gregsten was worried about financial matters,and had a general feeling he ought to be dead.
Looks like someone else thought the same thing!
Could Gregsten have decided to take his health problem into his own hands ,but find himself in dire straights financially, because he was feeding a serious drug habit?
Doing the math, on the surface of things,money wise, he should have been better off than he was.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3659  
Old 11-11-2016, 03:30 PM
moste moste is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Vancouver Island British Columbia.
Posts: 387
Default

Proceeding from above post.
It's notable that these medical institutions don't hold back any punches( as with Hanrattys examinations)
Gregsten himself had complained of ' depersonalization syndrome'
The Tavistock clinic labelled him as being a person with a 'severe character disorder'.
His own doctor had him down as psychoneurotic.
P.s. Just wondering ,if his employers at the R .R .Labs knew about all this whether he might have found himself in even more debt,as an unemployed?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #3660  
Old 11-11-2016, 03:35 PM
moste moste is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Vancouver Island British Columbia.
Posts: 387
Default

Above info. Mostly gleaned from the author B. Woffinden. Maybe of interest to posters who don't have the books.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.