Kelly photo 1 enhanced - graphic

[Gabrielle]

I have been looking and looking for hours at the pics (and especially this incredible good enhanced one).

At first glance I always assumed she did wear sock(s).
Her right leg ascertained me she did wear something on her right leg, also because of the black line (improvised garter.??) you see...which in my humble opinion is no cut!
It is just too clean to be a cut..

And I myself rather see the blood stains on her right leg as if it is on fabric, not like smears on flesh...

On the left leg in between the ankle and the knee I see a slight difference in colouring as if a sock is there, allthough her toes are bare..? Legwarmers of some sort a possibility???
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I haven't got the time right now to look it up, but is there evidence MJK had had intercourse? Seems kinda difficult with all the fluids there to be sure of that- at least in those days...

But I just want to know for sure because Richards' post and other long known details got me thinking...

[Ben]

If she was killed by a intruder, surely she would have been in bed, with her bedroll not in the position found?

Unless the killer did the "rolling" himself, Richard, to allow him more space for mutilating. Difficult to gain access to abdominal organs through a sheet!

I quite like your option "A" though.

All the best,
Ben

[anna]

Hi Ben,
I agree....I favour "A" too....
This also revives the interesting thought of whether she would be able,or indeed feel like,folding her clothes on the chair....I would of thought if she was in a drunken stupour,that she would have just discarded them where she stood,or throw them onto the chair.We have Dew saying that she was always seen out dressed neatly....which sort of ties in with her wanting to fold her clothes,for when she next needs them.There again,we only have the witnesses opinion that she was drunk.We don't know for sure.
I have had another thought on this.....that is,that Jack may be so fond of Kelly normally,and knows she likes to look neat....so in feeling guilty afterwards,folds her clothes for her...even thought he knows she won't be needing them..I'm thinking of Barnett,here.
I can relate this to grief also....as I kept my dad's glasses after he was gone...as he had really bad eyesight and couldn't see a thing without them...even though I knew there was no possibility he would ever return...I had to do it.... (oh dear,now I'm crying...silly Anna).Maybe that's just me,I don't know.
Anyway,Just some thoughts folks.
ANNA.

[perrymason]

Just to add to Ben and Anna, I think A) is very likely too Richard. Since we have evidence that Jack cuts through some clothing in previous kills, it doesnt seem plausible that he would remove her stockings, or stocking, before working. Maybe he just pushed up her chemise, or cut it open.

I really cant imagine him kneeling on her bed between her legs doing his dirty work, but I think it would be equally unlikely that if he was right handed, he worked just from the left side of the bed. Very awkward angle for some of those cuts. I think its quite possible this killer was lefthanded.

Best regards all.

[Ben]

I agree, Anna.

I'd be rather surprised if she took the time to fold her clothes if she was undressing for a client. It needn't be incompatibile with intoxication, though; a drunk person will often take exaggerated caution over mundane routines, almost in compensation for their otherwise haphazard behaviour.

Best regards,
Ben

[Fisherman]

Michael writes:

"I really cant imagine him kneeling on her bed between her legs doing his dirty work"

Why is that, Michael? Surely it is a very feasible suggestion?

The best!
Fisherman

[Blackkat]

I should clarify. I didn't mean to say that Jack would take them off himself. That was to simply make a point. I don't think Jack would have taken off her socks. I think she was able to do that herself given her line of work.

Mary not getting her other sock off because she was drunk? That does make sense seeing they all seemed to be lushes. I could see that. If that is another sock, I could understand that. However, I still don't think she's wearing a sock on that left leg.

As for the fibers that if not wool would make for very hairy legs? Well looking at the picture taken that is looking towards the door - the same "fibers" on the sock are right beside her leg closest to the wall. (covers or something) Those "fibers" on her leg that are suppose to be a sock could very well be artifacts in the picture.

And again as some have stated, we are dealing with a very old picture, that is NOT the best resolution. If the statement says she wasn't wearing anything but a chemise, then I'd guess they would know.

[perrymason]

Michael writes:

"I really cant imagine him kneeling on her bed between her legs doing his dirty work"

Why is that, Michael? Surely it is a very feasible suggestion?

The best!
Fisherman

Hi Fisherman,

I think its only feasible if you want to suggest that on this particular killing he didnt mind having his trousers, shirt cuffs and sleeves as well as hands and arms covered in blood. If he knelt between her legs while stripping her right thigh of flesh, and emptying her midsection, I think the residual blood left in organs and arteries would get on him.

If he is left handed, and standing, its an easy pivot for him when removing "materials" from Mary and placing them about, like onto the nightable, and reaching up while kneeling between her legs to lift her head and place a breast there doesnt seem to me a likley scenario. If your right, then we have a killer who matches an analogy Ive used about that night frequently, he was like a child playing in a bloody sandbox.

I dont believe victims 1-4 show that at all. He had objectives....whether the cutting or the organs, he went to work...he didnt "play".

On Mary maybe passing out while undressing....I think thats very feasible, and when you consider that she was very drunk when arriving, and that she was singing off and on, likely without any more booze other than Blotchys pint of ale, then you can imagine a pretty tired, begininning a hangover, woman. I dont believe she was with company though when she passed out...I think thats just how she was for her late arrival...half dressed and half awake.

Best regards all.

[Blackkat]

If Mary had been singing, and she was the one that folded her clothes neatly placing them on the chair, and seeing that she wasn't new to drinking - then why wouldn't she have taken off her left sock. She seemed to be "with it" enough to sing, and possibly fold her own clothes. She would have been able to take off both socks.

Also, going on the theory that she had a wool sock on her left leg, there isn't enough material (height) after the "garter", there isn't enough color difference between her knee and the "sock", and in that time the garter, or makeshift garter as a shoestring would be tied or placed in the wrong area for the "black circle" around and beneath the knee area for placement of such an accessory.

Doesn't make sense.

[Blackkat]

If Mary had been singing, and she was the one that folded her clothes neatly placing them on the chair, and seeing that she wasn't new to drinking - then why wouldn't she have taken off her left sock. She seemed to be "with it" enough to sing, and possibly fold her own clothes. She would have been able to take off both socks.

Also, going on the theory that she had a wool sock on her left leg, there isn't enough material (height) after the "garter", there isn't enough color difference between her knee and the "sock", and in that time the garter, or makeshift garter as a shoestring would be tied or placed in the wrong area for the "black circle" around and beneath the knee area for placement of such an accessory.

Doesn't make sense.

Okay I've put in some questions to a costumer, and a museum on era clothing. They are going to send some pictures of socks for this time period. Wool, silk etc. Also information on the placement of garters. At this point all that I've found with women using anything in place of a garter was tied above the knee , not below. The lady I spoke with said that the garter can't be placed too far under the knee, because it would have been be entirely too tight in order to stay, and it would be uncomfortable. I'll post everything when I get the info.

[Blackkat]

Could someone tell me what Senor Crocodile [or Mr. Bolster] is? Sorry if I'm not up to par on that.

[Fisherman]

Michael writes:

"I think its only feasible if you want to suggest that on this particular killing he didnt mind having his trousers, shirt cuffs and sleeves as well as hands and arms covered in blood. If he knelt between her legs while stripping her right thigh of flesh, and emptying her midsection, I think the residual blood left in organs and arteries would get on him.

If he is left handed, and standing, its an easy pivot for him when removing "materials" from Mary and placing them about, like onto the nightable, and reaching up while kneeling between her legs to lift her head and place a breast there doesnt seem to me a likley scenario. If your right, then we have a killer who matches an analogy Ive used about that night frequently, he was like a child playing in a bloody sandbox.

I dont believe victims 1-4 show that at all. He had objectives....whether the cutting or the organs, he went to work...he didnt "play"."

Fair points about the breast under the head and the swiwel movement towards the table, Michael. But I really don´t see any impossibility in leaning in over her from a position between her legs, grabbing her by the hair to lift the head, and then tucking away the items under her head that were subsequentially found there. Slightly awkward, perhaps, but then again what he was up to on the whole was awkward, was it not? He would also, I believe, be able to reach the table from such a position, without any swiwel movement called for.
All of this may of course be academic questions, since there is no need to accept that he must have been in the same poisition throughout the whole process, is there?

As for the comparison with the other victims, the fact that he did not go to the same lenghts there, may of course be an issue of time. He was so much more pressed for it when he killed in the streets.

The best, Michael!
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

I've started a new thread on the subject of what the piccies might tell us about Kelly's last moments. A subject worthy of a thread in itself, I feel.

[Sam Flynn]

Also information on the placement of garters.

I'm not so sure that asking about the "official" or "accepted" means of wearing a garter applies in this case, Kat - at least not in terms of etiquette or fashion statements. We're talking about the bottom end of the social pyramid where, in much the same way that trousers could be held up by a length of string, a shoelace might be employed to stop a knackered, sawn-off stocking from slipping down too far.

[Ben]

Hi all,

Not having involved myself much in victim photo-related discussions over the years, I'm probably not as clued-up as I should be when it comes to what can be seen where, but I'm personally struggling to see anything resembling a stocking/garter/sock in the main Kelly #1 image.

All the best,
Ben