The Manchester Murders

[Sam Flynn]

Was Bolton considered part of Manchester or Greater Manchester in 1888?

The answer appears to be a resounding yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Manchester

But Bolton was a sufficiently large conurbation to be called by its own name and, given the town's importance to the cotton industry, a cotton merchant like Maybrick would surely have referred to it as Bolton, rather than the generalisation of "(Greater) Manchester". The diarist almost certainly meant Manchester, period.

[Trapperologist]

Even if he’s talking about the weather being cold and wet?

[Sam Flynn]

Even if he’s talking about the weather being cold and wet?

I'd have thought that Bolton is Bolton, whatever the subject. I daresay the only circumstance under which I'd think of Manchester in connection with Bolton would be if I were asked this question on a game-show: "Complete the following; Bolton is a town in the metropolitan county of Greater ____". And even that isn't equating/conflating Bolton with Manchester.

[Trapperologist]

For the sake of argument, let’s say the author had a murder in Bolton in mind.

Would a modern hoaxer trying to look Victorian say the weather was bad in Bolton after visiting Manchester and Bolton? Or would a modern hoaxer with today’s weather services make the differentiation?

[Sam Flynn]

I don't think it likely that anyone would generalise Bolton as "Manchester" at any time.

[Trapperologist]

That's an interesting premise with regard to weather in the Victorian era. I'd like to see proof though because I think a Victorian would say Manchester, if he went there. Is it any different that someone going to London and Camden and saying where the weather was bad? Of course, I can double check the records and documents and literature for myself.

[Trapperologist]

I think we both forgot we're actually talking Farnworth which is in metropolitan Bolton but is 3.7 km away from Bolton and 12.1 km away from Manchester. Bolton, okay, but "Farnworth was cold and wet"? No.

[Trapperologist]

The Manchester murders are a strange detail but I assume the hoaxer wanted to account for the lack of kills closer to home and bookend the Whitechapel series....

I would agree with this argument as a case can be made that a "hoaxer" would have had to have had extensive profiling knowledge, behavioral and geographic, on a par with anything today.

[Sam Flynn]

I would agree with this argument as a case can be made that a "hoaxer" would have had to have had extensive profiling knowledge, behavioral and geographic, on a par with anything today.

I doubt that the alcoholic loser John Humble had any such sophistication behind his mention of the Preston murder in his hoax "Yorkshire Ripper" letter of 1978.

[MrBarnett]

That's an interesting premise with regard to weather in the Victorian era. I'd like to see proof though because I think a Victorian would say Manchester, if he went there. Is it any different that someone going to London and Camden and saying where the weather was bad? Of course, I can double check the records and documents and literature for myself.

SF,

Can you clarify: are you saying that you believe a Victorian would have been less aware of the distinction between Manchester and Bolton than 21st century Brits such as Gareth and myself?

Gary

[MrBarnett]

SF,

Can you clarify: are you saying that you believe a Victorian would have been less aware of the distinction between Manchester and Bolton than 21st century Brits such as Gareth and myself?

Gary

Not to mention modern day Boltonions (if that’s a word):

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/11542130.amp/

[MrBarnett]

This, from the Manchester Courier of Feb., 1890, gives some idea of the thinking at the time:

[Trapperologist]

SF,

Can you clarify: are you saying that you believe a Victorian would have been less aware of the distinction between Manchester and Bolton than 21st century Brits such as Gareth and myself?

Gary

My premise was that someone visiting both would say the weather was bad in Manchester rather than Bolton but I did a good hour research and didn’t come up with any similar examples from anywhere. No “library miracle”! I withdrew that idea but realized we’re talking about Farnworth specifically. So I don’t think there’s any debate here. I agree now and can see Bolton as a Manchester Murder location based on the text as possibly being ruled out, modern author or otherwise.

PS Aren’t we also supposed to believe the Ripper was thinking about Manchester for his outdoor murder series? Hence the weather topic?

[Trapperologist]

This, from the Manchester Courier of Feb., 1890, gives some idea of the thinking at the time:

If you have examples of what I was talking about specifically which is a circa 1889 example of someone talking about the "weather in Bolton", that would be interesting. I know there were weather stations in the area that were reported on but I'm talking about that. I'm talking of average persons. Of course nowadays, I live in a suburb and look at the weather app specifically for that suburb. Would they have in the past -- checked the weather, not the app?

I still don't see why "Manchester" excludes "Bolton" or "Farnworth". Wasn't his brother living in Moss Side? Isn't that presumably where he would have gone? So why doesn't he say "Moss Side"? Or it was "cold and wet" in "Moss Side"?

[Abby Normal]

The Manchester murders are a strange detail but I assume the hoaxer wanted to account for the lack of kills closer to home and bookend the Whitechapel series. It was a long time ago, records are lost, crimes are unreported, they could use the "evidence of absence" argument to cover themselves.

agree harry. what barret probably didn't realize was that murder was VERY rare back then and that more likely than not it would have been all over the news. surely if there was a murder in Manchester at the time it would be recorded. another reason the diary is an obvious fake.