Mary Jane's grave

[Jane Coram]

Hi Anna,

I can see the point you are making, and I think most would agree that it would be nice to see the grave cleaned up......including Mary, but a pristine memorial is not really possible, with the best will in the world.

People that have put the items there have done so as a token........and it was obviously important to them to do it. I personally probably wouldn't put anything on it as that's not my way, but I understand that other people might feel the need to do it and certainly wouldn't knock them for it.

How do we decide which tokens should stay and which should be cleared off? You either clear the lot away, or leave it all, because no-one has the right to decide whose token is worthy of being there and whose isn't.

Obviously it can be tidied up.......and bits of debris that are totally irrelevant cleared away which might make a difference..........but it's going to happen all over again as more visitors put things there. Even if you cleared the lot away, give it a year and it would all be back again.

So really the only way Mary is going to have a token free grave is if items left are continuously cleared and thrown away.......Personally, I would rather see a strange collection of miscellany, left by people who want to show respect for Mary in their own way than nothing at all - and this applies to all the victims not just Mary.

Much love

Jane

xxxx

[Cap'n Jack]

Then I'd suggest you leave Andrew Cook's new book there, as it sort of shows how the modern world views the remains of a once proud and feisty kid trying to make a bad trip into a good trip.
If respect is to be shown, let us please do it in life and not in brutal and sordid death.

[Khanada]

How do we decide which tokens should stay and which should be cleared off? You either clear the lot away, or leave it all, because no-one has the right to decide whose token is worthy of being there and whose isn't.

We're not really Mary Jane's family -- and they would be the only people who would get to have a right to decide what stays and what goes. As it stands, she's not really got a family -- and yet she does, albeit weirdly adopted over a century after the fact!

Were I there, I admit that I couldn't help but semi-tidy up a bit -- I would never remove anything, but I absolutely would straighten something that had tipped over, which is about the most 'interference' I would feel comfortable with. (I'm one of those people who can't walk past a grave with a flag on it without fixing the flag if it's fallen over.)

So really the only way Mary is going to have a token free grave is if items left are continuously cleared and thrown away.......Personally, I would rather see a strange collection of miscellany, left by people who want to show respect for Mary in their own way than nothing at all - and this applies to all the victims not just Mary.

Same for me.

I was discussing this thread with the S.O. on the way home last night... His thought on people leaving coins was that it's literally a form of paying tribute. Once in human history, tribute would have been paid in things -- foods, furs, whatever kind of non-cash trade items you can think of. If you paid in coin, back when those were so very much rarer, it would make a certain kind of impression, in that you were parting with something that was quite a bit more precious than it seems now. So while that coin may not seem super-precious today, there was a time in human memory and history when paying tribute in coin instead of goods would have been a big deal -- and maybe it's an unconscious reflection of that, for some who leave coins at the graves.

If respect is to be shown, let us please do it in life and not in brutal and sordid death.

As soon as there is a time machine, we'll all be there at Miller's Court to do just that. (Does November 6 work for everyone? I'll be the redhead in the pink tweed Rex Harrison hat.) But as it currently stands, we can't. Better to show respect to the dead, whomever they may be, than to just walk on by like they never existed.

[Jane Coram]

Nicely put Khanada,

You beat me to it with the time machine!

It's no secret on the boards that my mum was an East End prostitute........she had me when she was 16 and had a very, very hard life, trying to make ends meet. She did her best to bring up four kids on her own most of the time, and although she would never win the mum of the year award, we turned out alright.

She also came very close to getting the wrong end of a knife a few times.....and beaten up a good few times as well......badly on some occasions. I wouldn't say she was that much different to Mary in character from what we know of her. So I can at least have a good guess at what a working girl might think of Mary's grave.

My bet is that my mum would have laughed her head off, taken the mickey out of all the stuff and said something like, 'bloody hell, you'd think they could tidy the ****ing thing up a bit.' but secretly I think she would have been pretty chuffed that someone had bothered to think of her. (She'd never bloody admit it! )

As I said, I personally wouldn't leave stuff, but I am certainly not going to knock anyone that has. I don't think that anyone can honestly suggest that flowers, (albeit pretty crappy ones) china cats, and nic nacs glorifies violent death.

Hugs

Jane

xxxx

[Khanada]

(I should have said I'll be the redhead in the pink tweed Rex Harrison hat, sitting in the Ten Bells whining that I can't get something non-alcoholic... Scrap that, maybe we better all meet on the steps at Christ Church.)

I like to think that all of them would be pleased to be remembered -- even if, like your Mum, they would never admit it. Me, I admit that I'm a stuff-leaver. I generally tend to go in for flowers, sometimes silk, sometimes live. I also am known to gently move things so I can photograph bare headstones (and then I put it all back).

[kensei]

Jane,

I'm glad you don't mind your work being left at the graves. I was a bit worried about it actually when I "confessed" to being the one who left the picture at Leytonstone, both here and on the "MJK Headstone" thread. Your portraits are a wonderful memorial to the victims. I miss the time when they were all here on Casebook.

[Magpie]

About the coins

I've heard of Jewish people putting small pebbles or coins on headstones as a mark of remembrance, but I did a little searching, and it seems that it's a very common gesture of respect to leave coins on the headstone of someone, especially in the US.

It seems particularly common when visiting the grave of someone you have have no particular connection to ( I hate to use the term celebrity in such a context, but it's apt) I found articles that described coins being left at the graves of Bruce Lee, Andy Warhol, the Black Donelleys, to name a few.

I also found an article about coins being left on the graves at Arlington cemetary--it seems that there's a specific meaning to the denomination of the coin left (trained with, served with, etc.) and the coins are collected by the cemetary and put into a fund for maintaining the graves.

So despite Mary's working girl history, there's likely nothing disrespectful intended by leaving coins at her grave.

Edit: okay, I just found a company in the US that actually sells "keepsake coins" which if not catering to the tradition of leaving coins on a headstone at least seems to be inspired by it. They seem a little tacky to my, but it takes all sorts.

[Jane Coram]

Hi Kensei,

As far as I'm concerned it's no problem at all.

I have been meaning to maybe put my paintings back up on a thread in the creative expression section of the board, as they disappeared when the board went down and some newcomers to the board might like to see them. (No-good them sitting on my hard drive doing sod all anyway.) If I get time a bit later, I'll resize them all and get them up. I've got a few new ones as well that I can dig out. It's just bracing myself to post them all up!

Sorry - slightly off topic.......back to Mary's grave.

Much love

Jane

xxxxx

[Mr Chumley]

cool, i would very much like to see them, the cold mortuary shots dont really give you any idea of a vibrant living person as a newbie I have had little to post, because everytime I get an idea someones done a thread or back issue link..doh!

[halomanuk]

They were very very good,Jane did a more than admiral job on them..
Time to re-show them Jane for the newbies !

[Khanada]

It seems particularly common when visiting the grave of someone you have have no particular connection to ( I hate to use the term celebrity in such a context, but it's apt) I found articles that described coins being left at the graves of Bruce Lee, Andy Warhol, the Black Donelleys, to name a few.

I haven't ever been to Warhol's grave, despite the fact that I once doggedly tracked the location down for a Warhol-obsessed friend of mine (a trip to Pittsburgh's Warhol Museum was enough, thanks -- though I really did like the stuffed Great Dane Warhol'd had). But in hunting it down for her so she could go, I found tons of photos of the grave, and three things are almost a constant in such photos. People leave Campbell's tomato soup tins (full & unopened), flowers ... and coins.



Jane I would love to see your paintings. I don't think I saw them before the crash.

[WARSPITE]

I left a flower, and a coin,dont know why.Like a marker,that someone had bothered to visit.

[Mrs. Fiddymont]

Jane, yes, please! We would love to be able to see your drawings, since I am always trying to "picture" the women as they were in life, and I doubt if I am the only one! (You have an awesome talent BTW!)

If I ever am lucky enough to get to London, I definitely would love to pay my respects. Yes, Mary and the others might laugh at them, but deep down I too think they would very much appreciate the fact that they haven't been forgotten, and that people care about them as people, not just as victims of a notorious serial killer....

[Baron of the High Rips]

Do any recent visitors to her grave leave anything for her. I've been a few times and usually leave something close to me. There is a black paisley bandana wrapped around it atm which is mine and some other things.

[richardnunweek]

Hello my friend,
I have visited [ like the others] kellys grave just once, leaving her a large bunch of flowers from myself and Leanne[ Parry] when we were about to co-write a book, which incidently Lea managed to finish[I unfortunately did not continue].
I was saddened to see how tacky it was becoming, and that was six years ago, but the subject of 'Jack' is very commercial,and that will be the case.
Regards Richard.