A Case of Misattribution?

[robhouse]

I wonder Rob if you or anyone else has followed up on a common belief that one of the International Club members brothers lived in the Model Homes off Goulston?

I recall hearing that bantied about at one time, and thought if you had more intensively researched this murder you might have stumbled across something.

Best regards,

Mike R

I haven't researched it Mike, but it wouldn't surprise me if more than one club member lived there. I think a lot of Jews lived in that building. But I don't really see how it pertains to the murder.

Rob H

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Garry

Yes, but if Fanny Mortimer's later statements are to be believed, then shouldn't she have seen or heard something of what Schwartz is describing? This, after all, is the woman who can distinguish the heavy steps of a passing constable from within her house, and may (or admittedly may not) have been at her door from 1230am to 1am...

Actually, Mortimer was at her door only for 10 minutes, from approximately 12:46 until 12:56am, but prior to that was in her house with the door open. It was during this time she heard the footsteps. The only thing we might expect her to have heard from the Schwartz incident was 'Lipski!', but then nobody heard that. We shouldn't expect her to have seen anything.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Tom

Yes on the basis of earlier statements attributed to her, I agree with you...but later ones (which per the A-Z may or may not come to us via a news agency) suggest she may have stood there from half past twelve onwards...

Nonetheless if she was there from 1246 she missed Schwartz by one minute only! As in most of the other witness statements, we have to ask how accurate these times really were...

All the best

Dave

[Monty]

There's two sides of the street. By across the street, I mean the side that doesn't have the Wentworth model dwellings on it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

As far as I'm aware there were no baths on the west side (opposite the dwellings) of Goulston st.

There were baths on the same side (East) and to the south of Goulston Street.

Monty

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Dave. Those 'later statements' you refer to are the ones that are demonstratably incorrect, but not altogether useless. When read in tandem with the 'earlier statements' a clear picture of events emerge, and it's more or less what I described in my last post.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all,

There are a few reports that Fanny stated that she was at her door off and on from about "half past" 12, and we know she was at her door near 12:55-56. What she didnt hear in the matter of Israel Schwartz is as important as what she didnt hear, and as I said before, Spooner, if you doubt what he said was the time he saw the running men, saw no-one exit Berner street running, and he was in a perfect spot to have seen it. Neither did Mr Brown, another good vantage point for that sighting.

I believe that some people are of the opinion that the anarchist club members may have killed Liz Stride, I am not one of those. I believe that the statement of Schwartz is to make sure no suspicion should fall on the club and I believe many if not most of the club statements that night attest to that fact. The hierarchy had one story....Louis arriving at 1, empty yard from Eagle till then,... but the rank and file members recall being alerted to the body around 12:40am.

I also believe the actual killer wanted the blame for that murder to be on the Jews in that club.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Garry Wroe]

Yes, but if Fanny Mortimer's later statements are to be believed, then shouldn't she have seen or heard something of what Schwartz is describing?

Tom has already beaten me to the punch on this one, Dave. Mrs Mortimer appeared at her front door within a minute or two of Schwartz fleeing the scene and returned indoors a minute or two before Diemschutz entered Berner Street. Since her doorstep vigil was corroborated by Leon Goldstein we can at least be sure that no-one entered or left the yard during this critical ten-minute period.

I've said all along I've been playing devils advocate here, but admitted I am suspicious of Schwartz...not because of his post-1888 movements though...it's just that he's somehow too conveniently on the scene …

But there is an element of serendipity about all eyewitness sightings, Dave. Had it not been for a rain delay, Lawende might never have seen Eddowes and companion at the Church Passage entrance. Conversely, the killer might have been caught red handed had George Morris taken a break from sweeping up and gone outdoors for a smoke. Schwartz was simply in the right place at the right time. That’s the way of these things.

The point I was really trying to make about his history and his post-1888 movements was that if we knew more, that knowledge might help allay some of the suspicions....

Suspicions which are totally without foundation in my view, Dave. Schwartz’s statement was initially believed by investigators and he continued to be regarded as a credible witness. The touchstone for any evaluation of any witness ought to be the evidence. As far as I’ve been able to determine, there isn’t a shred of evidence to impugn Schwartz’s stated version of events.

With regard to conspiracy theories, I'm always instinctively, deeply suspicious of them.

I’ll drink to that.

[mariab]

Is there any evidence that Schwarz was connected to the club?

Yes, there is, and I'm in the process of sorting it out.

Why would an anarchist Jew whack Liz Stride and risk a pogrom?

Noone is implying any of this.

Would the police not investigate Schwarz's contact with club members?

Apparently they did, but we only have indirect proof of that and NO sources pertaining to their results (apart from the Swanson report and a hint in The Star).

That said, I do have an interesting Berner Street connection, which will be revealed at my talk in September.

Can't wait to hear of this, I hope you'll post about it after the York conference. I was also wondering if Polish censuses have survived in a relative entirety.

Quote Cogidubnus :admitted I am suspicious of Schwartz...not because of his post-1888 movements though...it's just that he's somehow too conveniently on the scene...and I admit it's more of a gut-feel than anything else...and I note I'm not alone in this feeling...many before have clearly felt the same. The point I was really trying to make about his history and his post-1888 movements was that if we knew more, that knowledge might help allay some of the suspicions
I'm working on his whereabouts post 1888, and one thing is certain (besides a very plausible connection to William Wess): This guy Schwartz sure covered his tracks after October 1888.

There were baths on the same side (East) and to the south of Goulston Street.

Monty,
could you explain where the baths were in relation to today? Vs. shops/the bank etc.?

Schwartz’s statement was initially believed by investigators and he continued to be regarded as a credible witness. The touchstone for any evaluation of any witness ought to be the evidence. As far as I’ve been able to determine, there isn’t a shred of evidence to impugn Schwartz’s stated version of events.

Correct about Swanson essentially ascertaining credibility to the witness in his report (while alone his mentioning of the question of credibility arises suspicions), but let's not forget this is a official report to the HO. It's a shame no statement for Schwartz has survived, like with Hutchinson.

[GregBaron]

Not Trevor's Cartel...

Ok, thanks Mariab, Lynn, Rob etc. I, for one, look forward to anything you uncover on Schwarz and the club.

I nevertheless reserve the right to consider Schwarz reliable until proven otherwise.

I still would like to know who the conspirators think guilty of murdering Stride and for what purpose?

I believe I remember that Lynn may consider her some kind of informant and therefore one who had to be silenced. But if the club was uninterested in silencing her, then who was?

Was it the Prussian cartel?



Greg

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks, Monty.

I nevertheless reserve the right to consider Schwarz reliable until proven otherwise.

Absolutely. Same here. I've looked at this probably closer than anyone, and while I think it probable that Schwartz was no stranger to the Berner Street club, I have found nothing to convince me that he was lying, or covering for the members of the club. And believe me when I say I looked hard to find something. But it's just not there.

Regarding Mortimer. Both she and Schwartz said it was very quiet on Berner Street at that time, and there's no reason to call either a liar. Leon Goldstein also appears not to have seen a soul as he walked along the street. Had Leon and Mortimer described more activity, then we'd have stronger reason to doubt Schwartz.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Yes, there is, and I'm in the process of sorting it out.

So there actually IS evidence?, evidence exists which connects Schwartz with this Club?

Regards, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Wick,

No, there's not, but she's digging to find something. Nothing more than what I previously pointed out to you on another thread - Schwartz lived on Berner Street up until the day of the murder. He was a young, Jewish immigrant who didn't speak English. The Berner Street club was a big club on a small street catering to young, Jewish immigrants. I personally think common sense dictates the two must have enjoyed some association, but common sense and evidence are not one and the same. Schwartz may, in fact, have been heading to the club (potentially his previous temporary residence) when his way was blocked by the 'fighting couple' and he crossed the street. This would explain why he lingered close to the club entrance and got so good at look at the woman, and why when he reached the kerb across the street, he turned to look back at the couple, before becoming frightened by Pipeman and running off.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

... I personally think common sense dictates the two must have enjoyed some association, but common sense and evidence are not one and the same.

Yes, its a reasonable conclusion to make.
Thanks for clarifying the matter.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

varia

Hello Greg. Thanks.

"I nevertheless reserve the right to consider Schwarz reliable until proven otherwise."

A wise policy.

"I believe I remember that Lynn may consider her some kind of informant and therefore one who had to be silenced."

I have checked and double checked. The main problem is the time. If she were a police spy, it made no sense to be there at 12.30--the meeting was breaking up around 11.30.

"But if the club was uninterested in silencing her, then who was?"

Don't know. Looks like she is being met at the back door of the club. Ideas?

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

I have checked and double checked. The main problem is the time. If she were a police spy, it made no sense to be there at 12.30--the meeting was breaking up around 11.30.

Do you know where Liz was at 11:30pm?

Don't know. Looks like she is being met at the back door of the club. Ideas?

Not back door, nor side door. She was standing in the gateway speaking to strange men as they walked by (According to Schwartz). And Charles Le Grand aka Pipeman killed her.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott