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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #11  
Old 05-26-2018, 06:06 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
Hi Jerry,

Lest we forget—

14 October 1889. Mr. T.H. Haslewood wrote to Scotland Yard that ‘Sergt. T. Thicke [sic]’ should be watched ‘and his whereabouts ascertained upon other dates when certain women have met their end . . .’

HO. A49301/193.

Regards,

Simon
Also the fact Sam that its Thicke, almost exclusively, who accuses Pizer of being Leather Apron...someone who at that time, was on the radar due to Annie Chapmans murder scene.
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  #12  
Old 05-26-2018, 06:28 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Okay since the capture of the East Area Rapist/Original Night Stalker (EARONS), who was also the VR (Vasalia Ransacker) and was known as the Golden State Killer (GSK) turned out to have been LE for the VR crimes as an officer in Exeter. He was LE also for the East Area Rapes while working as LE for Auburn. All are around Sacramento.

He was fired from LE and then continued to commit his crimes as ONS. He did these along Santa Barbara.

He even changed his MO.

Many doubted EARONS was LE, including myself.

Here are some of the reasons we had...

1) No time to do it all.
2) Can't travel from one end of Sacramento to the other.
3) LE had all checked out.
4) Statistics.
5) Would be easily recognized.

I think some of you might see in these arguments the same ones for why JtR couldn't be LE.

I think that will have to be revised in light of what we know now.

I know some LE have been suspects in the literature. What about contemporary claims at the time? Was a member of LE ever fingered for the crimes?

Its an interesting question in particular with Kate Eddowes murder. Pearce, Harvey, Watkins, Marriot, Halse and Outram, Long, Morris...did I miss anyone?...were all within the vicinity of her murder at the time it happens. Its the only one of the "Canonical" murders that has a plethora of police near... at the time of the murder.
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  #13  
Old 05-26-2018, 08:00 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Its an interesting question in particular with Kate Eddowes murder. Pearce, Harvey, Watkins, Marriot, Halse and Outram, Long, Morris...did I miss anyone?...were all within the vicinity of her murder at the time it happens. Its the only one of the "Canonical" murders that has a plethora of police near... at the time of the murder.

Hi Mike and welcome back.

The City Police were watching a suspect that night. Winsdor Street is directly behind the Bishopsgate Police Station in the area of Mrs. Paumier's sighting of a man at Widegate and Sandy's Row. For me, the story below ties in with the James Blenkinsop statement.

Times (London)
Tuesday, 2 October 1888

Shortly after the first horrible murders were committed some weeks ago, special precautions were taken by the City Police authorities with a view to detect the criminal or criminals, several plain-clothes constables being ordered on the beats in the district which has now become so notorious. Instructions were given to the constables to watch any man and woman seen together in suspicious circumstances, and especially to observe any woman who might be seen alone in circumstances of a similar nature. At about the time when the Mitre-square murder was being committed two of the extra men who had been put on duty were in Windsor-street, a thoroughfare about 300 yards off, engaged, pursuant to their instructions, in watching certain houses, it being thought possible that the premises might be resorted to at some time by the murderer. Five minutes after the discovery of the murder in Mitre-square, the two officers referred to heard of it, and the neighbourhood was at once searched by them, unfortunately without result.

Last edited by jerryd : 05-26-2018 at 08:16 AM.
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  #14  
Old 05-26-2018, 02:17 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
Hi Mike and welcome back.

The City Police were watching a suspect that night. Winsdor Street is directly behind the Bishopsgate Police Station in the area of Mrs. Paumier's sighting of a man at Widegate and Sandy's Row. For me, the story below ties in with the James Blenkinsop statement.

Times (London)
Tuesday, 2 October 1888

Shortly after the first horrible murders were committed some weeks ago, special precautions were taken by the City Police authorities with a view to detect the criminal or criminals, several plain-clothes constables being ordered on the beats in the district which has now become so notorious. Instructions were given to the constables to watch any man and woman seen together in suspicious circumstances, and especially to observe any woman who might be seen alone in circumstances of a similar nature. At about the time when the Mitre-square murder was being committed two of the extra men who had been put on duty were in Windsor-street, a thoroughfare about 300 yards off, engaged, pursuant to their instructions, in watching certain houses, it being thought possible that the premises might be resorted to at some time by the murderer. Five minutes after the discovery of the murder in Mitre-square, the two officers referred to heard of it, and the neighbourhood was at once searched by them, unfortunately without result.
Hi Jerry, and thanks Seems I still have some fish to fry, questions I need better answers for.

This was also the weekend of the Post Office Robbery which I believe netted the culprits around 1500L, as well as some stamps as I recall. It just seems very unusual, without anyone having any real strong opinion about where "the killer" lodged, at least not at Superior ranks..., without any real cause to suspect imminent Ripper activity in the City, without any prior knowledge that a robbery was happening near Mitre Square, without any reason to be on extra alert...that 3 detectives were searching alleys after midnight.

Of all the documents we can look at today, it appears any real interest in where the killer might have lodged rested within the theory of his being Jewish, and the enclaves within the East End that harboured, in high percentage, populations of Jewish immigrants. Thats not the City.

I dont see any real reason why there would be any heightened sense of urgency about impending activity in the City on that night, unless perhaps the records that covered those areas and time period have never come to light.
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  #15  
Old 05-26-2018, 02:22 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Also the fact Sam that its Thicke, almost exclusively, who accuses Pizer of being Leather Apron...someone who at that time, was on the radar due to Annie Chapmans murder scene.
I dont know why I thought that I was responding to Sams post Simon, my apologies.

I didnt like how "convinced" Thicke was based on what we know, and Im fairly certain Piser was no Leather Apron anyway.
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  #16  
Old 05-26-2018, 03:25 PM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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According to the Star 5th Sept,

"One woman whom he [Leather Apron] assailed some time ago boldly prosecuted him for it, and he was sent up for seven days."

Is there any record of this happening to Piser?
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  #17  
Old 05-27-2018, 05:08 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is online now
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Hi Jerry, and thanks Seems I still have some fish to fry, questions I need better answers for.

This was also the weekend of the Post Office Robbery which I believe netted the culprits around 1500L, as well as some stamps as I recall. It just seems very unusual, without anyone having any real strong opinion about where "the killer" lodged, at least not at Superior ranks..., without any real cause to suspect imminent Ripper activity in the City, without any prior knowledge that a robbery was happening near Mitre Square, without any reason to be on extra alert...that 3 detectives were searching alleys after midnight.

Of all the documents we can look at today, it appears any real interest in where the killer might have lodged rested within the theory of his being Jewish, and the enclaves within the East End that harboured, in high percentage, populations of Jewish immigrants. Thats not the City.

I dont see any real reason why there would be any heightened sense of urgency about impending activity in the City on that night, unless perhaps the records that covered those areas and time period have never come to light.
Hi Michael,

The eastern edge of the City was very much a Jewish area. Bevis Marks, Houndsditch, Aldgate High Street and one side of Middlesex Street (Petticoat Lane) were all in the City.

According to the press, after the Pizer debacle the 'slaughterman theory' returned to favour, and the City's slaughterhouses were predominantly in that same area.

So if the City police wanted to concentrate their manpower in the part of their jurisdiction that had the highest Jewish population and the greatest number of slaughterhouses, I'd imagine that's exactly where they would have done so.

Gary
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  #18  
Old 05-28-2018, 03:40 AM
Batman Batman is offline
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Thanks to everybody who replied. In response to where I was all this time -- Reddit.com/r/earons doing stuff on the East Area Rapist/Original Night Stalker before he was caught. Happened to me with BTK also. Was doing stuff, on message boards about a case when a few months/year later it broke.
  1. I would look for a PC who was maybe fired from the force for fraternising with prostitutes prior to the attacks and who was then looked at for maybe other reasons following the Mary Kelly murder.
  2. I would also take another look at Anderson and the Swanson Marginalia again because it involves a Police Seaside Convalescent Home (probably Brighton). I suspect maybe there was an officer here who IDed the suspect claiming he saw JtR. I really wonder who this PC was!
  3. JtR was aware of LE beats. Ever more so when it comes to Mitre Square.
  4. I suspect he joined the local Ripper groups looking for JtR and did some recon of his targets this way.
  5. I would look at Eddowes again who had just been in the drunk tank in a police station.
  6. Inside LE knowledge about stake-outs could explain why he avoided all of them.
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Last edited by Batman : 05-28-2018 at 03:42 AM.
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  #19  
Old 05-28-2018, 12:23 PM
Scott Nelson Scott Nelson is offline
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re: #2. Could James Hay actually be James Harvey?
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  #20  
Old 06-01-2018, 05:46 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Hi Michael,

The eastern edge of the City was very much a Jewish area. Bevis Marks, Houndsditch, Aldgate High Street and one side of Middlesex Street (Petticoat Lane) were all in the City.

According to the press, after the Pizer debacle the 'slaughterman theory' returned to favour, and the City's slaughterhouses were predominantly in that same area.

So if the City police wanted to concentrate their manpower in the part of their jurisdiction that had the highest Jewish population and the greatest number of slaughterhouses, I'd imagine that's exactly where they would have done so.

Gary
I get the association Gary, but I'm still of the belief that something other than heightened patrols around slaughterhouses caused 3 detectives to be out after midnight. Id also add that anyone in the city who may have caught wind of the earlier murder that night would have no reason to suspect any particular trade of that act. No "butchery" at all.

It just sticks in my craw that the people closest to Kate Eddowes murder were all either active or retired policemen. And that if one were of a mind to cordon off an area to ensure that anyone leaving that area would bump into the police, Mitre Square seems a great location to set that up. I'm not so sure it would be specifically to catch a "Ripper", but perhaps someone they had been following and fearful of. The Parnell Commission brought some bad folks into town too...the Ripper murders were just an "also ran" danger at that period in time, particularly to the City itself.

Maybe the police were considering that their chances of catching a killer might be much better just after a murder had happened.
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