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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Doctors and Coroners

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  #81  
Old 05-21-2018, 04:42 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
I'm not so sure about that last bit, Sam. Brown says;
"Behind this the liver was stabbed as if by the point of a sharp instrument. Below this was another incision into the liver of about 2 1/2 inches and below this the left lobe of the liver was slit through by a vertical cut"
That only applies to one of the wounds to the liver, Josh. The two other wounds ("below this... below this") could have been the product of something other than the initial abdominal puncture wound under the xiphoid.
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  #82  
Old 05-21-2018, 05:12 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Thanks for that Jon. Brown does say that the kidney was "carefully taken out and removed" but even so, cutting the renal artery and ureter with a six inch blade might well account for the horizontal cut in the liver mentioned in my previous post.
Hi Joshua.
Given the number of injured organs mentioned by Brown, I wonder if he meant that no bits of that kidney remained in the body. Meaning at least he was careful removing that organ?

Notice though, Brown does say the peritonial lining was cut on the left side, and the kidney removed.
This appears to suggest the killer made a slit in the stomach lining specifically to access the kidney.

Contra to some who have suggested that he rummaged around in the dark and just grabbed what ever he laid his hands on.

The intentional slit in the peritonial lining seems to indicate he targetted that organ specifically. I hadn't noticed that before.
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  #83  
Old 05-21-2018, 05:16 PM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
That only applies to one of the wounds to the liver, Josh. The two other wounds ("below this... below this") could have been the product of something other than the initial abdominal puncture wound under the xiphoid.
Yes, possibly. I'm just trying to make sense of Brown's words. Do you have an alternative theory?
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  #84  
Old 05-21-2018, 05:34 PM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Hi Joshua.
Given the number of injured organs mentioned by Brown, I wonder if he meant that no bits of that kidney remained in the body. Meaning at least he was careful removing that organ?

Notice though, Brown does say the peritonial lining was cut on the left side, and the kidney removed.
This appears to suggest the killer made a slit in the stomach lining specifically to access the kidney.

Contra to some who have suggested that he rummaged around in the dark and just grabbed what ever he laid his hands on.

The intentional slit in the peritonial lining seems to indicate he targetted that organ specifically. I hadn't noticed that before.
I think that's the way that a butcher, hunter or smallholder would remove a kidney when butchering an animal - make a small slit in the membrane, then slide your fingers into this and run them alomg the kidney and it essentially just pops out. Then just pull the kidney up and slice through the artery etc.

Which does seem to indicate that he knew what he was doing. Unless the cut to the peritoneum was collateral damage from other cuts, such as the colon. But most likely you're right.
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  #85  
Old 05-21-2018, 10:47 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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I think that's the way that a butcher, hunter or smallholder would remove a kidney when butchering an animal - make a small slit in the membrane, then slide your fingers into this and run them alomg the kidney and it essentially just pops out. Then just pull the kidney up and slice through the artery etc.

Which does seem to indicate that he knew what he was doing. Unless the cut to the peritoneum was collateral damage from other cuts, such as the colon. But most likely you're right.
Bu if this was what happened, then why are not the medicos of the time very clear in establishing that there can be little doubt that the killer wilfully targetted and extracted the kidney? Even if the cut to the peritoneal lining was collateral damage, it would seem that the kidney would need to be reached for by the fingers before it "popped out"?
Surely, such a process would be well known to the medicos if it was common practice with butchers and hunters?
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  #86  
Old 05-21-2018, 11:14 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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"Surely, such a process would be well known to the medicos if it was common practice with butchers and hunters?"

Not necessarily, Fish. How many London doctors would have been familiar with the practices of hunters, or butchers for that matter? Not many, I bet.
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  #87  
Old 05-22-2018, 07:44 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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"Surely, such a process would be well known to the medicos if it was common practice with butchers and hunters?"

Not necessarily, Fish. How many London doctors would have been familiar with the practices of hunters, or butchers for that matter? Not many, I bet.
That may be true - but it should have been obvious to them which way the kidney took out of the body, and there would have been press people and police alike who had access to the information about it. Somebody should have known.
Then again, we are in all probability dealing with a time that was innocent, if you like - or ignorant. The business with the abdominal walls should have had alarm bells ringing, but it apparently never did.

Maybe we should not expect too much from their side.
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  #88  
Old 05-22-2018, 07:52 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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That may be true - but it should have been obvious to them which way the kidney took out of the body
How many actually saw the cut - and, of those, how many would have been acquainted with the techniques of butchers or hunters? (Bear in mind that butchers and slaughtermen were already under scrutiny anyway, and that there can't have been that many hunts going on in London since the times of George the Fourth )
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  #89  
Old 05-22-2018, 07:59 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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How many actually saw the cut - and, of those, how many would have been acquainted with the techniques of butchers or hunters? (Bear in mind that butchers and slaughtermen were already under scrutiny anyway, and that there can't have been that many hunts going on in London since the times of George the Fourth )
Well, there can be no telling how many saw the cut, but they would not have been many. But since we do know that hunters and butchers were looked into as reasonable suspects, one would have thought that their practices would have been scrutinized too.
If the technique employed to take out the kidney looked like Joshua suggests, then it would be very odd if it was not recognized by the ones handling the Ripper case that far into the proceedings.
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  #90  
Old 05-22-2018, 10:40 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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I didn't mean to suggest that the killer was definitely a huntsman or whatever. Just that the details of the kidney extraction are not incompatible. They're pretty scant really - one cut, carefully removed. That could fit a variety of removal techniques. The abdominal opening looks very amateurish though.

Wasn't it around the time of the Pinchin St torso that someone suggested that London butchers had a recognisable style? The police and/or doctors didn't make mention of that. Or didn't see any similarity.
I don't think Bond saw Eddowes, but I believe he did hunt deer in the country so would most likely be familiar with gralloching - quickly removing the entrails before the meat spoils.
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