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  #11  
Old 05-16-2018, 03:34 PM
cnr cnr is offline
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Default just a question, and it's not rhetorical...

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Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
As the graffito offers no insight into the murders, and the killer never communicated at the other crime-scenes...
Hi Harry D. Not wanting to appropriate a thread, I have redirected your most recent comment here.

I'd just like to add to your point above, the cry of “Lipski” (an anti-Semitic epithet) as delivered in Berner Street, only a few hours previous to the graffito's discovery. That's as good a communication as any, and it came from the killer's own lips while assaulting one of the victims at the murder site.

Top cop, Warren, thought the graffito authentic and anti-Semitic. His take is broadly consistent with the views of personnel in his purview (Moore, Anderson - and I might loosely add Arnold and Swanson to these) who I imagine informed his opinion.

...and let's not forget the acting top cop of the City force, Smith, who believed the GSG was “probably” genuine and left as a ruse “to throw suspicion upon the Jews”.

None of the police on record, to my knowledge, ever wavered in their opinions.

Following, are the reasons why I think they may have arrived at their conclusions, even putting aside the issue of the, potentially corroborating, apron piece:
  • Stride is spotted in various locations in the vicinity of a Jewish radical club and newspaper in the company of a suspect consistently described as "stout"* and 5"5' - 5"7'**. Plotting the sightings on a map, suggests she had been by the club four times in the space of about an hour and may not have been simply promenading aimlessly past it - we know from the inquest testimony of PC Smith and the club's founding secretary, Wolf Wess, that Berner Street was no haunt for prostitutes. Was the plan to leave a mangled corpse on the premises ?
  • An evening lecture, entitled 'Why Jews Should Be Socialists', had concluded not long beforehand at the club.
  • cry of "Lipski" - see above
  • Eddowes last seen with suspicious character at the corner of Duke St. & Church Psge (which is the location of the Great Synagogue's southern entrance) nine minutes before being found dead and mutilated in adjacent Mitre Square.
  • The graffito referenced the anti-Semitic street talk (and recent riot) blaming the murders on the Jews, and was left in a building tenanted "almost exclusively by Jews".
I think these are among the reasons why the police may have arrived at the conclusion they did about the graffito, even putting aside the apron piece.

The following is not a rhetorical question, but are there any police officers or officials on record saying they did not believe the graffito to be genuine ? I'd like to explore any such material. (On that note, even if somewhat tangientaly, I am only aware of Whitehall bureaucrat, Godfrey Lushington - who thought the graffito had been written by a crowing Jewish Ripper).

Stephen
http://www.austcrimewriters.com/rele...stephen-senise

* Gardner & Best, Marshall, Brown, Schwartz
** Gardner & Best, Marshall, PC Smith, Brown, Schwartz

Last edited by cnr : 05-16-2018 at 03:57 PM.
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  #12  
Old 05-17-2018, 12:40 AM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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Originally Posted by cnr View Post
Hi Harry D. Not wanting to appropriate a thread, I have redirected your most recent comment here.

I'd just like to add to your point above, the cry of “Lipski” (an anti-Semitic epithet) as delivered in Berner Street, only a few hours previous to the graffito's discovery. That's as good a communication as any, and it came from the killer's own lips while assaulting one of the victims at the murder site.

Top cop, Warren, thought the graffito authentic and anti-Semitic. His take is broadly consistent with the views of personnel in his purview (Moore, Anderson - and I might loosely add Arnold and Swanson to these) who I imagine informed his opinion.

...and let's not forget the acting top cop of the City force, Smith, who believed the GSG was “probably” genuine and left as a ruse “to throw suspicion upon the Jews”.

None of the police on record, to my knowledge, ever wavered in their opinions.


Following, are the reasons why I think they may have arrived at their conclusions, even putting aside the issue of the, potentially corroborating, apron piece:
  • Stride is spotted in various locations in the vicinity of a Jewish radical club and newspaper in the company of a suspect consistently described as "stout"* and 5"5' - 5"7'**. Plotting the sightings on a map, suggests she had been by the club four times in the space of about an hour and may not have been simply promenading aimlessly past it - we know from the inquest testimony of PC Smith and the club's founding secretary, Wolf Wess, that Berner Street was no haunt for prostitutes. Was the plan to leave a mangled corpse on the premises ?
  • An evening lecture, entitled 'Why Jews Should Be Socialists', had concluded not long beforehand at the club.
  • cry of "Lipski" - see above
  • Eddowes last seen with suspicious character at the corner of Duke St. & Church Psge (which is the location of the Great Synagogue's southern entrance) nine minutes before being found dead and mutilated in adjacent Mitre Square.
  • The graffito referenced the anti-Semitic street talk (and recent riot) blaming the murders on the Jews, and was left in a building tenanted "almost exclusively by Jews".
I think these are among the reasons why the police may have arrived at the conclusion they did about the graffito, even putting aside the apron piece.

The following is not a rhetorical question, but are there any police officers or officials on record saying they did not believe the graffito to be genuine ? I'd like to explore any such material. (On that note, even if somewhat tangientaly, I am only aware of Whitehall bureaucrat, Godfrey Lushington - who thought the graffito had been written by a crowing Jewish Ripper).

Stephen
http://www.austcrimewriters.com/rele...stephen-senise

* Gardner & Best, Marshall, Brown, Schwartz
** Gardner & Best, Marshall, PC Smith, Brown, Schwartz
The police had their views and they were there but my contention on the graffito is http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...=2290&page=269 , post #2687.
Didn't they search for the writer,asking the residents of the dwelling with no results? But your point on why it was the ripper who wrote it or the police thought it was him is interesting.But it also all could be coincidences and not connected.

-
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Last edited by Varqm : 05-17-2018 at 01:07 AM.
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  #13  
Old 05-17-2018, 02:13 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Ive been meaning to raise this question for years but keep forgetting to mention it. I cant recall if its been dealt with in books or not.

Do we know that ‘Lipski’ was actually used as an insult? Did anyone from that time confirm that it was used as an insult or are we just assuming that because its the name of a murderer who was Jewish? Would everyone have been aware of Lipski?

I cant recall which book this came from but i remember someone suggesting that the shout might have been ‘Lizzie,’ For me this is far from unbelievable. We only have Schwartz word and he could easily have been mistaken. And if the man who shouted it actually knew Stride it would seem perfectly reasonable.

All im saying is ‘are we too certain that someone shouted Lipski at all?’
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  #14  
Old 05-17-2018, 02:18 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Quote:
.I'd just like to add to your point above, the cry of “Lipski” (an anti-Semitic epithet) as delivered in Berner Street, only a few hours previous to the graffito's discovery. That's as good a communication as any, and it came from the killer's own lips while assaulting one of the victims at the murder site
Can we be confident of this though Stephen? Is it likely that the killer, after drawing attention to himself in the street, would go on to murder Liz Stride? Surely he didnt remain unidentified and at liberty by taking unnecessary risks like this?
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  #15  
Old 05-17-2018, 03:20 PM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Ive been meaning to raise this question for years but keep forgetting to mention it. I cant recall if its been dealt with in books or not.

Do we know that ‘Lipski’ was actually used as an insult? Did anyone from that time confirm that it was used as an insult or are we just assuming that because its the name of a murderer who was Jewish? Would everyone have been aware of Lipski?

I cant recall which book this came from but i remember someone suggesting that the shout might have been ‘Lizzie,’ For me this is far from unbelievable. We only have Schwartz word and he could easily have been mistaken. And if the man who shouted it actually knew Stride it would seem perfectly reasonable.

All im saying is ‘are we too certain that someone shouted Lipski at all?’
Hi Herlock
It was Inspector Abberline who suggested that Lipski was shouted at Schwartz as an insult, Schwartz himself was unable to say who the shout was directed at.
Abberline's 1st Nov report concerning the incident;

"I beg to report that since a jew named Lipski was hanged for the murder of a jewess in 1887 the name has very frequently been used by persons as mere ejaculation by way of endeavouring to insult the jew to whom it has been addressed, and as Schwartz has a strong jewish appearance I am of opinion it was addressed to him as he stopped to look at the man he saw ill-using the deceased woman.
I questioned Israel Schwartz very closely at the time he made the statement as to who the man addressed when he called Lipski, but he was unable to say."

This report was I believe the eventual response to a report by Swanson (19th Oct) where he stated that "The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the [Pipe]man on the opposite side of the road 'Lipski' & then Schwartz walked away" and concluded "the use of 'Lipski' increases my belief that the murderer was a Jew".

And yet, according to the Star 1st Oct interview with Schwartz, it was not the man who accosted Stride who called out, but Pipeman who shouted out "some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman"

So, given the uncertainty about who said what to whom, a cry of "Lizzie" seems, pardon the pun, as good a shout as any.
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  #16  
Old 05-17-2018, 03:40 PM
cnr cnr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

Do we know that ‘Lipski’ was actually used as an insult? Did anyone from that time confirm that it was used as an insult or are we just assuming that because its the name of a murderer who was Jewish? Would everyone have been aware of Lipski?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

Is it likely that the killer, after drawing attention to himself in the street, would go on to murder Liz Stride? Surely he didnt remain unidentified and at liberty by taking unnecessary risks like this?
Hi Herlock,

Abberline confirms the use of 'Lipski' as a local anti-Semitic insult, later repeated in a draft letter by Anderson.

The item I have found most interesting, by way of corroboration of Abberline's take, can be found in the Yiddish language Die Tsukunft of 12 August, 1887:
" When an ordinary person kills a person everything is quiet. It will not occur to anyone to call another person by the name of a murderer. But when Lipski is sentenced to death, the ordinary people taunted other Jews ‘Lipski’! "
As to the huge risks JTR took, it was an issue raised in editorial after editorial as the murder spree picked up momentum. "Audacious" is one adjective that just keeps popping up. This piece is one of my favourites, from the Star (7 September, 1889):
" All the murders have been audacious. The murderer has in each case taken chances which would have frightened any
ordinary assassin from his purpose."
Indeed, Dr Bond had warned police that the killer was a man, "of great coolness and daring".

Thanks for your personal insights here, Herlock; they are certainly food for thought and worth mulling over while we collectively lay stranded here in 1888 waiting for a break in the case and our way out of Whitechapel. Come that day.

Stephen
http://www.pressreader.com/australia...81694025363295
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  #17  
Old 05-17-2018, 03:43 PM
jmenges jmenges is offline
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Abberline interviewed Schwartz, and Abberline states as a fact that 'Lipski' was used at the time as an insult to hurl at a jew. Anderson backed him up on this point. I don't believe anyone would feel that it was necessary to confirm what Abberline claimed as a fact. Its who shouted it that gets garbled by the Star, not what was shouted.

Edit- My post crossed with Stephen. Excellent quote from the Die Tsukunft. Thanks!

JM

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  #18  
Old 05-17-2018, 04:49 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Can we be confident of this though Stephen? Is it likely that the killer, after drawing attention to himself in the street, would go on to murder Liz Stride? Surely he didnt remain unidentified and at liberty by taking unnecessary risks like this?
Hi Herlock
I think the ripper was having a tough time finagling stride to where he wanted her. And basically lost his cool.

And I wouldn’t be totally surprised if he actually cut her throat in the street and that Schwartz missed that part.

But there is no doubt that broad shoulders, who also basically fit other descriptions of the ripper, was her killer and the ripper. Peaked cap and all that.
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quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #19  
Old 05-17-2018, 05:27 PM
cnr cnr is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

...a report by Swanson (19th Oct) where he stated that "The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the [Pipe]man on the opposite side of the road 'Lipski' & then Schwartz walked away" and concluded "the use of 'Lipski' increases my belief that the murderer was a Jew".
Thanks for bringing that up Joshua.

Yes, that was Swanson's report on behalf of the Metropolitan Police to the Home Office, dated 19 October.

The conclusion you cite (my underline), however, was written as a marginal note early-on in the report, not by Swanson, but at the other end, by the bureaucrat, Godfrey Lushington, Permanent Under-Secretary at the Home Office.

In terms of a nascent racial narrative which may have been forming in the police's appreciation of the case at that moment, I find Swanson's report of 6 November, nominally discussing the GSG, quite interesting. Just a personal take, that's all.

Of course, more broadly, we have Warren's, "…the last murders were obviously done by some one desiring to bring discredit on the Jews and Socialists or Jewish Socialists".

That's the top cop, speaking for the cops. Of course, it's a snapshot at one moment in time. But it's quite a statement.

Stephen
http://www.timesofisrael.com/were-th...mitic-frameup/

Last edited by cnr : 05-17-2018 at 05:46 PM.
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  #20  
Old 05-18-2018, 02:28 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Hi Herlock
It was Inspector Abberline who suggested that Lipski was shouted at Schwartz as an insult, Schwartz himself was unable to say who the shout was directed at.
Abberline's 1st Nov report concerning the incident;

"I beg to report that since a jew named Lipski was hanged for the murder of a jewess in 1887 the name has very frequently been used by persons as mere ejaculation by way of endeavouring to insult the jew to whom it has been addressed, and as Schwartz has a strong jewish appearance I am of opinion it was addressed to him as he stopped to look at the man he saw ill-using the deceased woman.
I questioned Israel Schwartz very closely at the time he made the statement as to who the man addressed when he called Lipski, but he was unable to say."

This report was I believe the eventual response to a report by Swanson (19th Oct) where he stated that "The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the [Pipe]man on the opposite side of the road 'Lipski' & then Schwartz walked away" and concluded "the use of 'Lipski' increases my belief that the murderer was a Jew".

And yet, according to the Star 1st Oct interview with Schwartz, it was not the man who accosted Stride who called out, but Pipeman who shouted out "some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman"

So, given the uncertainty about who said what to whom, a cry of "Lizzie" seems, pardon the pun, as good a shout as any.
Thanks for that Joshua. So it looks like it was used as an insult at the time
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