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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Letters and Communications > General Letters or Communications

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  #21  
Old 04-23-2018, 01:54 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridewell View Post
Hi Abby,

What is there to indicate that Israel Schwartz (assuming that's who you mean) was of 'heavy appearance'? Theatrical I'm familiar with, but heavy? Talking of theatrical (which we weren't but we are now) isn't Hutchinson's description of Astrakhan man essentially that of a 'theatrical Jew'?
hi Bridewell
abberline said Schwartz was of "heavy jewish appearance".

I don't know much about the theatrical angle on Schwartz, but if that was in the papers I wouldn't doubt hutch might have incorporated that in his fake description of Aman.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #22  
Old 04-23-2018, 02:31 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
hi Bridewell
abberline said Schwartz was of "heavy jewish appearance".

I don't know much about the theatrical angle on Schwartz, but if that was in the papers I wouldn't doubt hutch might have incorporated that in his fake description of Aman.
In his report dated 1st November 1888 Abberline says "Schwartz has a strong Jewish appearance" (my italics). Whilst that could be taken as a reference to physical strength, the context is surely far more suggestive of meaning that he was very Jewish in appearance. Schwartz may have been heavy but then again he may not.
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Last edited by Bridewell : 04-23-2018 at 02:36 PM.
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  #23  
Old 04-23-2018, 02:43 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Bridewell View Post
In his report dated 1st November 1888 Abberline says "Schwartz has a strong Jewish appearance" (my italics). Whilst that could be taken as a reference to physical strength, the context is surely far more suggestive of meaning that he was very Jewish in appearance. Schwartz may have been heavy but then again he may not.
Ok my bad. Strong Jewish appearance. And your right and thatís what I meant he was very Jewish looking.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #24  
Old 04-23-2018, 03:56 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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The individuals who interrupted the killer on the night of the double event may have been Jewish but their being Jewish played no part at all in what took place. In other words, they weren't in the place they interacted with the killer because it was somehow related to being Jewish, i.e., part of a ceremony or ritual. I suppose it could have been the straw that broke the camels back if he harbored a long standing resentment against them but it seems that in and of itself it was inconsequential that they happened to be Jews.

But even if we grant that an interruption by Jews that evening triggered some sort of anti-semitic rage the GSG does not reflect that. Now it is possible that the author of the GSG considered what he wrote to be the most insulting and damning indictment of Jews the world had ever seen up to that point but to us it seems to be indicating some mild resentment against them and certainly not what we would expect from someone in a rage against the Jews.

c.d.
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  #25  
Old 04-23-2018, 04:07 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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"Several of the murders happened in Jewish neighbourhoods, at a time when antisemitism was rife. It's just as likely that the Jewish theme is circumstantial rather than inherent to the murders."

Calling Mr. Occam. Calling Mr. Occam. Good one, Harry. As usual. If someone is intent on finding a connection they most likely will whatever it may be.

c.d.
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  #26  
Old 04-23-2018, 05:50 PM
etenguy etenguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c.d. View Post
"Several of the murders happened in Jewish neighbourhoods, at a time when antisemitism was rife. It's just as likely that the Jewish theme is circumstantial rather than inherent to the murders." c.d.
As you state, several Ripper murders were committed in Jewish neighbourhoods and antisemitism was rife. It was not Jewish women who were targeted however, and so it is a stretch for me to conclude that antisemitism was the motivator for the murders. Of course, this does not preclude the possibility that the murderer was nevertheless antisemitic.

As for the GSG, this may be explained as general graffiti and the fact that it referenced Jews was not surprising given the neighbourhood and so it may simply be a coincidence that the night the murderer was disturbed by a Jewish man that message became part of the case. We do not have the luxury of knowing precisely what it said, but the police at the time obviously saw a potential link and the possibility that it could be interpreted as murder related. The presence of the piece of apron at that spot where the graffiti was written could be mere coincidence. The reference to blame in the message needn't be a reference to the murders that took place that night, that too may have been mere coincidence. The fact that the only other piece of authenticated messaging (though not proven a hoax or authentic) relating to the Ripper murders was also connected with the murder of Catherine Eddowes may also be mere coincidence. When so many coincidences converge, a simpler explanation might be sought, such as the murderer spooked by being disturbed wrote the GSG and sent the Lusk letter. To avoid a repeat, his next victim was murdered inside a house.
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  #27  
Old 04-23-2018, 05:58 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by etenguy View Post
As you state, several Ripper murders were committed in Jewish neighbourhoods and antisemitism was rife. It was not Jewish women who were targeted however, and so it is a stretch for me to conclude that antisemitism was the motivator for the murders. Of course, this does not preclude the possibility that the murderer was nevertheless antisemitic.

As for the GSG, this may be explained as general graffiti and the fact that it referenced Jews was not surprising given the neighbourhood and so it may simply be a coincidence that the night the murderer was disturbed by a Jewish man that message became part of the case. We do not have the luxury of knowing precisely what it said, but the police at the time obviously saw a potential link and the possibility that it could be interpreted as murder related. The presence of the piece of apron at that spot where the graffiti was written could be mere coincidence. The reference to blame in the message needn't be a reference to the murders that took place that night, that too may have been mere coincidence. The fact that the only other piece of authenticated messaging (though not proven a hoax or authentic) relating to the Ripper murders was also connected with the murder of Catherine Eddowes may also be mere coincidence. When so many coincidences converge, a simpler explanation might be sought, such as the murderer spooked by being disturbed wrote the GSG and sent the Lusk letter. To avoid a repeat, his next victim was murdered inside a house.
Hi eten
Good post. It got me wondering if the ripper might have thought that any of the Jews that may have disturbed him, particularly Lawende and company , might have been part of a vigilance committee and or associated with Lusk? Hence from hell letter.


RE Kelly and indoors... IMHO more than likely a lucky accident for the ripper.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #28  
Old 04-23-2018, 09:39 PM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is offline
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Could the fact that several of the murders where committed in Jewish neighbourhoods simply because the killer was familiar with the surroundings, and felt safer there. IE He was Jewish
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  #29  
Old 04-23-2018, 11:03 PM
etenguy etenguy is offline
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Originally Posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
Could the fact that several of the murders where committed in Jewish neighbourhoods simply because the killer was familiar with the surroundings, and felt safer there. IE He was Jewish
Hi Darryl. It wasn't an exclusively Jewish area, so probably insufficient on its own to conclude he was Jewish. But I think you are right that he lived in the area or knew the area well.
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  #30  
Old 04-23-2018, 11:14 PM
etenguy etenguy is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi eten
Good post. It got me wondering if the ripper might have thought that any of the Jews that may have disturbed him, particularly Lawende and company , might have been part of a vigilance committee and or associated with Lusk? Hence from hell letter.


RE Kelly and indoors... IMHO more than likely a lucky accident for the ripper.
Hi Abby. Thanks. I think you and I have similar views with regard the GSG and Lusk letter.

My thinking is similar to yours regarding the reason for sending a letter to Lusk. But that is pure speculation with nothing to support it, other than it provides a plausible possibility.

I differ with you with regard to the Kelly murder. Again, pure speculation, but I think he actively sought a safer environment. But it could have simply been an accident of opportunity.
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