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  #4391  
Old 04-23-2018, 12:03 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Be that as it may, I haven't yet found a reference to bone black being used as an arsenic (or strychnine) antidote, which is what Feldman said.
Firstly, in terms of definitions, from The Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1856:

"IVORY-BLACK....When all the volatile products are separated, the mass which remains in the retort, consists of the earthy and saline portions of the bone, blackened by carbon of the animal matter, and forming what is called ivory-black, bone-black or animal charcoal."

From Knights' American Mechanical Dictionary, 1876:

Bone-black is prepared by the distillation of bone in retorts,
Animal charcoal is another name for bone-black
Ivory-black is a bone black obtained from cuttings, raspings, dust, and scrapes of ivory.


So bearing in mind that animal charcoal, bone-black and ivory-black are all essentially the same thing:

"Pharmacologia" by John Ayrton Paris MD, 1823:

Under "Medical uses of charcoal":

"It has been lately asserted to possess powers as an antidote to arsenic; if this be true, its action can only be mechanical by absorbing like a sponge the arsenical solution, and thereby defending the coats of the stomach from its virulence."

Refers in this context to Lardner's Prepared Charcoal which is said to consist of "cretaceous powder, or chalk finely powdered, rendered gray by the addition of charcoal, or ivory black."

This is from The Half-Yearly Abstract of the Medical Sciences, Jan-June 1851:

In the "Transactions of the Medical Society of London" by Dr A.B. Garrod, detailing some experiments in which he employed purified animal charcoal as an antidote. This is prepared from ivory black, by digesting it in dilute chlorohydric acid to remove the earthy matters, afterwards washing it and heating it to redness in a covered crucible.

Dr Garrod concludes from his experiments:

1st. That animal charcoal has the power of combining , in the stomach, with the poisonous principles of animal and vegetable substances, and that the compounds thus produced are innoxious, therefore, when given before these poisons have become absorbed, it will act as an antidote.

2nd. That animal charcoal will absorb some mineral substances, and render them inert; but so large a quantity of the charcoal is required, that it is not so well adapted for many poisons of this class, as their own special antidotes; the effects of arsenic, however, appear to be better combated by this than any other article.
"

In "The Elements of Materia Medica and Therapeutics" vol 1 by Jonathan Pereira M.D., 1854 under "poisons and reputed antidotes" one of the antidotes listed for arsenic is "Animal charcoal (purified animal charcoal, common animal charcoal,ivory black)".

That animal charcoal and bone black was regarded as interchangeable can be seen from this extract from "The Retrospect of Medicine" by W. Braithwaite (ed) 1858:

"Animal Charcoal an antidote to Vegetable Alkaloids – If to solutions of little poisons of henbane, belladonna, stramonium, or morphia, a little animal charcoal be added, the poison is completely neutralized. This property makes animal charcoal of the greatest use as an antidote to these substances; common black bone will do very well; vegetable charcoal does not possess these properties (Dr A. B. Garrod p.361)"

A Dictionary of Chemistry and Allied Branches of Other Sciences vol 1, 1870

"Bone black…removes bitter principles and organic alkaloids from their solutions, and has been recommended as an antidote in case of poisoning by such substances".

Harper's Magazine vol 43, 1871:

"A German chemist directs attention to its property of absorbing inorganic bodies also, and suggests that bone-black might occasionally serve as a valuable antidote in cases of poisoning."

And then:

"Note-book of Materia Medica" by Dr Angus Macdonald, 1871

"Animal charcoal is chiefly used as a decolourising agent in pharmacy and the arts, but little as a medicine. But it may be employed in some cases as wood charcoal. It has been recommended as an antidote in poisoning by certain alkaloids, as morphia, strychnia and aconitia; but it is extremely doubtful if it ever does more in such cases than simply entangle, and thus delay the absorption of the poison to a slight extent. "
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  #4392  
Old 04-23-2018, 12:05 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Why didn't you have T-shirts made with "Sam Flynn is a complete fvckwit" written on them in big letters?

One link would have done.
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  #4393  
Old 04-23-2018, 12:32 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Originally Posted by rjpalmer View Post
For what it is worth, and it may be worth little, I also have a memory of looking through my parents' photo albums as a child and seeing lots of black dust in the spine. It was from those little black "mounting corners" that were popular in the 1930s-60s for mounting photographs in albums. The black paper would degrade and leave a lot of nasty black dust. Who knows on what Eastaugh's statement was based?
I have a copy of Eastaugh's report dated 2 October 1992. He says that a "black powder" was found "lying in between the pages and cut edges near the binding".

Four areas of the specimen of the black powder were examined using an SEM/EDS system and the elements found in the powder were as follows:

1. Ca S P Cl Mg Cl Na K
2. Ca Si S P Cl Na Mg Al K
3. Ca Cl S P Mg Si Na Al K
4. Ca S P Cl Si Mg K Na

[Ca = calcium
S = sulfur
P =phosphorus
Cl = chlorine
Mg = magnesium
Cl - chlorine
Na = sodium
K = potassium
Al - aluminium
Si =silicon]

He goes on to say:

"Examination of the black powder under the SEM revealed needle-like particles as well as some flat crystalline material. The presence of phosphorus as well as large amounts of calcium in a black powder suggest that the material may be pigment bone (or ivory) black - this substance is characterised by the presence of calcium phosphate derived from bones. Further analysis is advisable to fully confirm the identification."

In the conclusion he says: "The black powder is possibly based on bone black."

So the identification doesn't seem to have been confirmed.
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  #4394  
Old 04-23-2018, 01:20 PM
rjpalmer rjpalmer is offline
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That's interesting, David, and worthy of investigation. Thanks. So it was found among the cut edges...
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  #4395  
Old 04-23-2018, 01:24 PM
Iconoclast Iconoclast is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Why didn't you have T-shirts made with "Sam Flynn is a complete fvckwit" written on them in big letters?

One link would have done.
A classic!

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  #4396  
Old 04-23-2018, 01:56 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Why didn't you have T-shirts made with "Sam Flynn is a complete fvckwit" written on them in big letters?

One link would have done.
lol!!!
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  #4397  
Old 04-23-2018, 02:20 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
Firstly, in terms of definitions, from The Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1856:

"IVORY-BLACK....When all the volatile products are separated, the mass which remains in the retort, consists of the earthy and saline portions of the bone, blackened by carbon of the animal matter, and forming what is called ivory-black, bone-black or animal charcoal."

From Knights' American Mechanical Dictionary, 1876:

Bone-black is prepared by the distillation of bone in retorts,
Animal charcoal is another name for bone-black
Ivory-black is a bone black obtained from cuttings, raspings, dust, and scrapes of ivory.


So bearing in mind that animal charcoal, bone-black and ivory-black are all essentially the same thing:

"Pharmacologia" by John Ayrton Paris MD, 1823:

Under "Medical uses of charcoal":

"It has been lately asserted to possess powers as an antidote to arsenic; if this be true, its action can only be mechanical by absorbing like a sponge the arsenical solution, and thereby defending the coats of the stomach from its virulence."

Refers in this context to Lardner's Prepared Charcoal which is said to consist of "cretaceous powder, or chalk finely powdered, rendered gray by the addition of charcoal, or ivory black."

This is from The Half-Yearly Abstract of the Medical Sciences, Jan-June 1851:

In the "Transactions of the Medical Society of London" by Dr A.B. Garrod, detailing some experiments in which he employed purified animal charcoal as an antidote. This is prepared from ivory black, by digesting it in dilute chlorohydric acid to remove the earthy matters, afterwards washing it and heating it to redness in a covered crucible.

Dr Garrod concludes from his experiments:

1st. That animal charcoal has the power of combining , in the stomach, with the poisonous principles of animal and vegetable substances, and that the compounds thus produced are innoxious, therefore, when given before these poisons have become absorbed, it will act as an antidote.

2nd. That animal charcoal will absorb some mineral substances, and render them inert; but so large a quantity of the charcoal is required, that it is not so well adapted for many poisons of this class, as their own special antidotes; the effects of arsenic, however, appear to be better combated by this than any other article.
"

In "The Elements of Materia Medica and Therapeutics" vol 1 by Jonathan Pereira M.D., 1854 under "poisons and reputed antidotes" one of the antidotes listed for arsenic is "Animal charcoal (purified animal charcoal, common animal charcoal,ivory black)".

That animal charcoal and bone black was regarded as interchangeable can be seen from this extract from "The Retrospect of Medicine" by W. Braithwaite (ed) 1858:

"Animal Charcoal an antidote to Vegetable Alkaloids – If to solutions of little poisons of henbane, belladonna, stramonium, or morphia, a little animal charcoal be added, the poison is completely neutralized. This property makes animal charcoal of the greatest use as an antidote to these substances; common black bone will do very well; vegetable charcoal does not possess these properties (Dr A. B. Garrod p.361)"

A Dictionary of Chemistry and Allied Branches of Other Sciences vol 1, 1870

"Bone black…removes bitter principles and organic alkaloids from their solutions, and has been recommended as an antidote in case of poisoning by such substances".

Harper's Magazine vol 43, 1871:

"A German chemist directs attention to its property of absorbing inorganic bodies also, and suggests that bone-black might occasionally serve as a valuable antidote in cases of poisoning."

And then:

"Note-book of Materia Medica" by Dr Angus Macdonald, 1871

"Animal charcoal is chiefly used as a decolourising agent in pharmacy and the arts, but little as a medicine. But it may be employed in some cases as wood charcoal. It has been recommended as an antidote in poisoning by certain alkaloids, as morphia, strychnia and aconitia; but it is extremely doubtful if it ever does more in such cases than simply entangle, and thus delay the absorption of the poison to a slight extent. "
Couldnt you have been a bit more thorough David
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  #4398  
Old 04-23-2018, 02:48 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Couldnt you have been a bit more thorough David
I'm not sure about thoroughness, but he could have been more relevant. Few of those references deal with bone-black being an arsenic antidote, and all of the references are very old. There are a number of other issues I might point out with the snippets David posted, but frankly I can't be bothered.

I might have pointed these out earlier had I read his post more carefully, but all I saw was an avalanche of words, apparently designed to beat me into submission, humiliate me and/or shut me up. This is a tactic I've often seen used elsewhere, but I wasn't expecting it here.

You live and learn.
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  #4399  
Old 04-23-2018, 04:44 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I'm not sure about thoroughness, but he could have been more relevant. Few of those references deal with bone-black being an arsenic antidote, and all of the references are very old. There are a number of other issues I might point out with the snippets David posted, but frankly I can't be bothered.

I might have pointed these out earlier had I read his post more carefully, but all I saw was an avalanche of words, apparently designed to beat me into submission, humiliate me and/or shut me up. This is a tactic I've often seen used elsewhere, but I wasn't expecting it here.

You live and learn.
Hi Gareth,

I wasnt applauding anything that i saw as a humiliation i just couldnt help smiling at David’s ....well thoroughness when he gives an answer. I just wouldnt have the committment to go to those lengths.

If and i suppose its only an ‘if’ bone back was used as an antidote then its surely either remarkable thoroughness on behalf of a forger or extreme luck in selecting a diary/photograph album with bone black in evidence? If its not...well its irrelevant. Where there any other uses for it, say in households?
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  #4400  
Old 04-23-2018, 05:16 PM
rjpalmer rjpalmer is offline
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I wouldn't necessarily assume 'luck.' Bone black is a pigment, and many of those ingredients listed by Eastaugh are also in powdered inks. I wonder if he considered that? Total guess, but maybe Barrett gets hold of some powdered calligraphy ink, experiments with it on the 'used' pages, and spills some of it in the gutter. The rest is an overactive imagination.
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