Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Maybrick, James: Anne Graham Interview - October 1995 - by DirectorDave 2 minutes ago.
Maybrick, James: Anne Graham Interview - October 1995 - by Sam Flynn 10 minutes ago.
Maybrick, James: Anne Graham Interview - October 1995 - by David Orsam 30 minutes ago.
Maybrick, James: Mike Barrett Interview - September 1995 - by Sam Flynn 48 minutes ago.
Maybrick, James: A Very Inky Question - by Sam Flynn 57 minutes ago.
Maybrick, James: A Very Inky Question - by David Orsam 1 hour and 3 minutes ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Maybrick, James: Too Sensible & Competent - (16 posts)
Maybrick, James: One Incontrovertible, Unequivocal, Undeniable Fact Which Refutes the Diary - (15 posts)
Maybrick, James: Mike Barrett Interview - September 1995 - (10 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Favorite suspect/s? - (7 posts)
Doctors and Coroners: Eddowes' gut cut - (3 posts)
Maybrick, James: Anne Graham Interview - October 1995 - (3 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #3311  
Old 04-21-2018, 07:58 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,089
Default

Johnny Gill and Barbara Waterhouse were also similar to the ripper style but more than likely not ripper murders. They were also both young children.
Quick reply to this message
  #3312  
Old 04-21-2018, 10:26 PM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: North Kilttown, Scotland
Posts: 801
Default

Fisherman, Abby. I'm uncertain; the general options seem to be: familiar, common or social. Familiar being, this Torso Killer and Jack the Ripper are one and the same; common being, they knew each other; and, social being, each killer was a stranger to the other(s). Considering that I would have questioned the Torso Killer about the Autumn of Terror murders if he had been apprehended, I have no issues/problems with noticing similarities; some have that "" factor. So, Fish, to your list in #3293, I might add: Jackson's "missing wedding ring" [Chapman] and those random cuts on the back of Pinchin St victim's hand/wrist area [Kelly]. I also thought the albeit-brief mention of the lack of sexual assault in either case was interesting/"possibly telling".

I don't know if the following hold any relevance but they are curiosities to me:
1. Did this Torso Killer stop around the same time as Jack the Ripper? iow if they were independent of each other, should more dismembered body parts have been expected to be found through the early 90s?
2. Theres been call for serial killers that provide contradictory examples to the "one and the same" assertion. The thing I noticed about those mentioned is that they had usually been caught or their identity discovered. Is it too random to believe that two sets of killers could have alluded the Metro's investigations without either ever providing an opportunity or clue leading to their apprehension?
__________________
there,s nothing new, only the unexplored
Quick reply to this message
  #3313  
Old 04-22-2018, 12:09 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 9,732
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert St Devil View Post
Is it too random to believe that two sets of killers could have alluded the Metro's investigations without either ever providing an opportunity or clue leading to their apprehension?
The killers of Smith, Tabram, Mylett, McKenzie, Coles and, I'd argue, Stride were neither Jack the Ripper nor the torso killer and, whoever they were, they were never brought to justice. There may have been many other killers at the time who literally got away with murder.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message
  #3314  
Old 04-22-2018, 12:20 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 9,732
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBarnett View Post
Can you quantify your classifications of 'frequent' and 'occasional'? It sounds like a huge difference. What are we talking about, dozens, hundreds?
I'm talking about percentages within each series, Gary. 4 out of 5 canonical Ripper victims disembowelled, as compared to only 2 out of however many torso victims you include in your Canon. 100% of the torso victims were dismembered, as opposed to 0% of the Ripper victims. And so forth.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message
  #3315  
Old 04-22-2018, 12:28 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 16,625
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
And so you are. You're (consciously or subconsciously) misleading yourself, at least.
Yes, that is true - as reragrds the Wikipedia article. I accepted it as representing statistics of major crime types. "Major", though, meant "well known", so it was a mistake to use the source.
In decideing whether you think it was a conscious misleading or an honest mistake, you may want to realize that I freely provided the source from the outset.

To me, honest blunders are not as bad as saying that "the journalists reporting about the abdominal flaps were wrong!" or as sweeping half of the evidence under the carpet, like you are doing with the "large flaps"/"slips" matter. Or, for that matter, interchanging "strips" and "slips".

You see, I am not fighting some sort of tactical battle here, with the aim to get the upper hand regrdless of what it takes. I am presenting the evidence, using BOTH "slips" and "large flaps", admitting that journalists CAN be wrong but saying that it is less likely than them being correct, not least since there are numerous sources speaking for the flaps representing the abdomen, cut in two.

I make mistakes. But I don´t produce them intentionally. And I am rather proud of the latter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Stop blurring the boundaries. The Ripper cases were, quintessentially, instances of disembowelment, (frequent) evisceration and (occasional) mutilation... with NO dismemberment WHATSOEVER. The torso cases were, quintessentially, instances of dismemberment with (occasional) evisceration and (rare) mutilation. As to "extreme unlikelihood"... how many cases of dismemberment occurred in the 218 years you've cited? Wikipedia lists of "greatest hits" arent' good enough, by the way.
The boundaries are anything but clear. The two series float in and out of each other, many things (some VERY unusual) being represented in both series, and other matters telling them apart.

Your problem is that there are way too many similarities for the series not to be connected. If that is you want me to stop saying, you will be disappointed. I listed ten similarities in a recent post, and that stands.

For your version of the events to be true it takes one dismemeberment killer who cut away the nose, who opened up abdomens, who took out a womb or wombs, who took out a heart, who took out lungs, who cut away part of a buttock, who targetted prostitutes in one or more cases and who cut away the abdominal flesh in what was referred to as large flaps. And then it takes ANOTHER killer, who did NOT dismember but who cut away the nose, who opened up abdomens, who took out a womb or wombs, who took out a heart, who took out part of a lung, who cut away part of a buttock, who targetted prostitutes in one or more cases and who cut away the abdominal flesh in what was referred to as large flaps.

In the same city.

In overlapping periods of time.

You may try to explain away these similarities - you have already tried to, with some desperation. That is evinced by how you have even stated that these similarities were no similarities at all. And then you add YOUR interpretation of the underlying motives, something you can speculate about but not know. And of course, this is where your comparison of slips and flaps enter the game. Speaking, as it were, about misleading. Conscious or subconcious or unconscious. Or unconscientious.
Quick reply to this message
  #3316  
Old 04-22-2018, 12:35 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 16,625
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert St Devil View Post
Fisherman, Abby. I'm uncertain; the general options seem to be: familiar, common or social. Familiar being, this Torso Killer and Jack the Ripper are one and the same; common being, they knew each other; and, social being, each killer was a stranger to the other(s). Considering that I would have questioned the Torso Killer about the Autumn of Terror murders if he had been apprehended, I have no issues/problems with noticing similarities; some have that "" factor. So, Fish, to your list in #3293, I might add: Jackson's "missing wedding ring" [Chapman] and those random cuts on the back of Pinchin St victim's hand/wrist area [Kelly]. I also thought the albeit-brief mention of the lack of sexual assault in either case was interesting/"possibly telling".

I don't know if the following hold any relevance but they are curiosities to me:
1. Did this Torso Killer stop around the same time as Jack the Ripper? iow if they were independent of each other, should more dismembered body parts have been expected to be found through the early 90s?
2. Theres been call for serial killers that provide contradictory examples to the "one and the same" assertion. The thing I noticed about those mentioned is that they had usually been caught or their identity discovered. Is it too random to believe that two sets of killers could have alluded the Metro's investigations without either ever providing an opportunity or clue leading to their apprehension?
I have mentioned the rings before, but thanks for reminding me. Yes, they are very interesting in the mix. So is the lack of sexual activity evidence, something i have also pointed to recently. The cuts seem more of a very possible coincidence to me.

The last (normally) accepted torso killing was in september of 89. The last (often) accepted Ripper murder was MacKenzie in the summer of the same year.
So that makes for a close finish - but once we are dealing with unapprehended killers, we must leave learoom for other murders. So it tells us very little.

When you ask: "Is it too random to believe that two sets of killers could have alluded the Metro's investigations without either ever providing an opportunity or clue leading to their apprehension?", do you mean that there was possibly to killers mimicking each other?

If so, yes, since anything is possible, it cannot be ruled out 100 per cent. But from the material we have at hand, it would take that the mimicking went in both directions. Either way, it is very much more unlikely than the one killer theory.
Quick reply to this message
  #3317  
Old 04-22-2018, 12:43 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 16,625
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I'm talking about percentages within each series, Gary. 4 out of 5 canonical Ripper victims disembowelled, as compared to only 2 out of however many torso victims you include in your Canon. 100% of the torso victims were dismembered, as opposed to 0% of the Ripper victims. And so forth.
To begin with, you did not refer to the dismemberments in your previous post. You instead referred to the eviscerations and mutilation as being occasional in one series and frequent in the other. So let´s have a look at that!

1. Jackson - eviscerated.
2. The Rainham victim - heart and lungs missing, may well have been the killers work
3. The Whitehall victim - "organs missing", f ex the uterus, may well have been the killers work.

Three out of four possibles within the 1887-89 series. 75 per cent.

1. Chapman - eviscerated.
2. Eddowes - eviscerated.
3. Kelly - eviscerated.

Three out of the canonical five. 60 per cent.

It all boils down to how we look at the evidence.

As for dismemberments, we seem to all agree that they took place when the killer had a saw and a secluded locality to work in.

How hard can it be? How hard can we make it out to be?

And how does any of these things change the similarities? They are nothing but suggestions of how it MAY be that the differences point away from a single killer. May.

Once we read up on the similarities, their numbers and character, that "may" quickly changes into a "can reasonably not".

Stop stacking differences. Produce a single parallel case with as many and unusual traits. If you can´t, then there you are. You are welcome to use single murders too, it does not have to be serial killings. Anything you can contribute is of interest.

Last edited by Fisherman : 04-22-2018 at 01:02 AM.
Quick reply to this message
  #3318  
Old 04-22-2018, 12:56 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 16,625
Default

Gareth, you have said a lot about the Wikipedia, but nothing at all about the Huffington Post article, where a team of scientists researching murder states that 1 out of 500 homicides only involve mutilation or dismemberment.

How does this figure affect your thinking on the case at hand?

To me, it further underlines how very unusual dismemberment killers and mutilators are. The Ripper and the Torso killer both fall into this categorization. And of course, we know that out of all the dismemberment murders there are - and there are not many - the absolute majority are practical dismemberment murders, involving no evisceration and mutilation, but instead a quick and normally rough dividing of the torso, limbs and head.

Last edited by Fisherman : 04-22-2018 at 01:02 AM.
Quick reply to this message
  #3319  
Old 04-22-2018, 01:12 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 16,625
Default

To make good for my heinous crime of accepting the Wikipedia article, I made a search for serial killer numbers, and found this on the World Atlas website:
1 United States 2,743
2 England 145
3 South Africa 112
4 Canada 101
5 Italy 94
6 Japan 91
7 Germany 75
8 Australia 75
9 Russia 70
10 India 65

This includes all the serial murder series listed, including the 19:th century murders.

I made another search to try and find the source, and it was stated on another site that the material derives from an 2105 study made by the Radford university.

I will not guarantee the correctness of this information, I will just say that I think it looks to be on the money.

If so, we have 145 serial murder cases in Britain throughout. Whether two of them took place in the same city and at the same time, involved instances of mutilation and evisceration and involved at least ten similarities inbetween the victims, some of them very unusual and peculiar, is quite a different matter - and very, very, very unlikely.
Quick reply to this message
  #3320  
Old 04-22-2018, 01:50 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 2,141
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
I don’t know enough about her. Could you provide details or point me in right direction.
http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rn-beadmore.html
__________________
Hail to the king, baby!
Quick reply to this message
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.