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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Maybrick, James

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  #391  
Old 03-22-2018, 09:05 AM
Graham Graham is offline
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Sam has it in a nutshell - our posts crossed.

Graham
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  #392  
Old 03-22-2018, 09:22 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
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Sam has it in a nutshell - our posts crossed.
Your post was far more nutshell-like than mine, Graham
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  #393  
Old 03-22-2018, 10:24 AM
Hunter Hunter is offline
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The victims in a nutshell:
It wasn't until Sugden's book in 1994 that Martha Tabram was seriously considered as a Ripper victim by a late 20th century author.
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  #394  
Old 03-22-2018, 12:15 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Turgoose: "The actual age would depend on the polishing regime employed, and any definition of number of years has a great degree of uncertainty and to some extent must remain speculation. Given these qualifications I would be of the opinion that the engravings are likely to date back more than tens of years, and possibly much longer."

This paragraph pretty much sums up my point. Turgoose accepts the uncertainty as to the exact age due to the polishing regime. He uses the phrase ‘to some extent must remain speculation. But even after that unbiased qualification he still says that the engravings are likely to date back more than....

This is his opinion.

Now again I’ll stress that I’m not saying that the watch is genuine. I don’t know enough about the subject (and certainly not from a scientific point of view.) It seems clear however, that whichever way we view and analyse statements, the test that have been done so far in no way challenge the suggestion that the engravings aren’t from the correct period. Perhaps more tests might do just that. But until then, we are where we are.
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  #395  
Old 03-22-2018, 12:34 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
he test that have been done so far in no way challenge the suggestion that the engravings aren’t from the correct period.
They don't in any way challenge the suggestion that the engravings are from the early 1990s either. This should be apparent if the reports are read carefully and with a critical, but objective, eye.

The fact that the markings on the watch were conveniently first noticed only after the "Maybrick" diary had been announced suggests strongly that the "Maybrick" watch was an opportunistic hoax made in response to the diary's publicity. The watch tests don't rule this out in the least.
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  #396  
Old 03-22-2018, 03:16 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Fair enough Gareth. But I'd also assume that a scientist would understand the ramifications of using the word 'likely' when giving the results of his analysis. If he didn't believe that his results justified the word he would have surely just said "the engravings might have been done in 1888/9 or equally they might not."
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  #397  
Old 03-22-2018, 05:22 PM
Graham Graham is offline
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Quote:
If he didn't believe that his results justified the word he would have surely just said "the engravings might have been done in 1888/9 or equally they might not."
Analytical chemists and other analytical scientists don't couch their findings in such language, HS. I know it's difficult to get one's head around science-speak, but what you quote would probably be regarded by those paying for tests as no answer at all.

As Sam correctly says, the SEM and SAM tests don't challenge the possibility that the engravings were relatively new when tested.

The fact that the Watch appeared so soon after the Diary raised quite a few highly-sceptical eyebrows at the time, believe me.

Graham
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  #398  
Old 03-23-2018, 04:24 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham View Post
Analytical chemists and other analytical scientists don't couch their findings in such language, HS. I know it's difficult to get one's head around science-speak, but what you quote would probably be regarded by those paying for tests as no answer at all.

As Sam correctly says, the SEM and SAM tests don't challenge the possibility that the engravings were relatively new when tested.

The fact that the Watch appeared so soon after the Diary raised quite a few highly-sceptical eyebrows at the time, believe me.

Graham
Hi Graham,

I’m not doubting the fact that the engravings could have been intentionally aged or the fact that Turgoose said this. All I’m saying is what I thought would be obvious and uncontroversial, that Turgoose said “likely.” Which, however way you look or analyse, can only be taken in one way; that Turgoose felt that it was likeliest that the scratches were more than tens of years old. That’s all

I do remember the original controversy Graham as I’d already been interested in the case for about 5 or 6 years. I have to admit that Melvyn Harris got up my nose a lot . I also remember being ‘surprised’ at how many dismissed the diary before they’d even had chance to read it. I’m still, very, very slightly on the fence, whilst accepting that the evidence is very heavily weighted in favour of forgery. I’d describe myself as ‘not being absolutely convinced yet.’

The problem is for me, when I make the above statement about not being totally convinced, and when I’ve played ‘devil’s advocate’ for the sake of debate on other threads I’ve felt like a holocaust denier in a synagogue.
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  #399  
Old 03-23-2018, 04:47 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Turgoose: "The actual age would depend on the polishing regime employed, and any definition of number of years has a great degree of uncertainty and to some extent must remain speculation. Given these qualifications I would be of the opinion that the engravings are likely to date back more than tens of years, and possibly much longer."

This paragraph pretty much sums up my point. Turgoose accepts the uncertainty as to the exact age due to the polishing regime. He uses the phrase ‘to some extent must remain speculation. But even after that unbiased qualification he still says that the engravings are likely to date back more than...
Not "even after" that qualification, but in the same breath as it.
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  #400  
Old 03-23-2018, 05:12 AM
Graham Graham is offline
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Hi HS,

I very much hear what you say, and have to tell you that in the early days of the Diary I was also pretty well (but not totally - always leave room for error) that the identity of Jack The Ripper had been finally established. However, as I'd also read a little about the Maybrick Case, I began to wonder. And when the Watch came to light so soon after the Diary, I thougt, Ello, Ello, what's going on 'ere, then? If you've never read Feldman's book I recommend it, not because it sorts out the whole mystery for us - because it doesn't, far from it - but as an illustration of where a fervent belief in the Diary (and the Watch) can lead someone who has the resources to follow up his own convictions. For all that, it's an entertaining read (although some on here would I'm sure disagree).

I also quite liked Melvin Harris - he also had convictions, to put it mildly. I wouldn't have wanted to fall out with him, though.

At this stage of the game, I don't feel as the claimed origin of the Diary has been established beyond doubt, nor do I feel that its claimed Battlecrease provenance has been proved. I also feel (and have always felt) that there is something rather dodgy going on with the Watch.

Just the random jottings of a rank amateur, but all good fun.

Graham
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