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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Catherine Eddowes

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  #21  
Old 03-13-2018, 04:47 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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I have transcribed both of the records found by Gary and Robert from 1877 and 1878. I noticed a couple of things while transcribing which I have mentioned in the post after this one.

Wandsworth Prison, Surrey: Register Of Prisoners
Series PCOM2 Piece number 284

1729 Catherine Conway or Eddowes, age 37, height 5ft 1/2 in., hair-dk., eyes dk. bro., complexion, other marks-scar of the head from blow & right eyelid from cut. Lost two front teeth upper jaw, scar left cheek from blow & left side ? from abcess. occupation-laundress, magistrate-R A Benson, Southwark, when committed-17 Aug 1878, when brought in to custody 17 aug 1878, nature of offence-dk in a tho'rofare, misdemeaner, sentence-7 days, fine 5s, expiration of term-23 Aug 1878, when discharged-23 Aug, if committed before how often and what offence-twice, when last 3136 6/8/77 3 days, can read, write, religion Ch, weight coming in-8st 6lb, out 8st 6lb.

Wandsworth Prison, Surrey: Register Of Prisoners
Series PCOM2 Piece number 288

3136
Kate Eddowes &child, age 36, height-5ft 2", hair-bro., eyes-dk, bro., complexion pale, other marks-scar right eyebrow, occupation-washer woman, magistrate-Lushington, at Lambeth, when committed-6 Aug 1877, when brought in to ustody 6 Aug 1877, nature of offence-dk. & c [drunk etc.] misdemeanor, sentence 14 days, fine 18s, expiration of term 18 Aug 1877, when discharged 18 Aug 1877, if committed before how often and what offence-13 times, last time 1503 23 Aug 1876, 3 months, can read write, religion Ch, weight going in 8st 11lbs, coming out 8st 11lbs
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  #22  
Old 03-13-2018, 04:48 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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The numbers in red are entry numbers in the actual register. Where it asked for previous offences it was given in the format of number of previous offences, another entry number, and a date. In the 'previous' noted in the 1878 entry, the number and date corresponds to the entry number {in red] in the 1877 entry found.

Using the information that before 1877 the last conviction for Catherine had been 23 Aug 1876, entry number 1503, I used this to trawl through the 1876 Wandsworth prison register and found that entry number 1503 did indeed involve a woman brought in on 23 Aug 1876 but that woman's name was Ann Holder and none of her details correspond with Catherine Eddowes details.

Despite not being able to find her in Aug 1876 I wonder what was happening that every August, and only August, for three years running, Catherine got herself arrested and imprisoned.
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  #23  
Old 03-17-2018, 07:53 AM
curious curious is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
I wonder what was happening that every August, and only August, for three years running, Catherine got herself arrested and imprisoned.
MrBarnett and Debra A. -- loving all your research! Thanks so much. It certainly helps us better understand.

Perhaps the August arrests were when she returned to London after hops picking? Would that involve drinking and catching up with old friends after being absent for awhile?

Can't help being curious -- Any arrest records for Annie Chapman?

Again, thanks for the great research!

curious
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  #24  
Old 03-17-2018, 08:04 AM
MrBarnett MrBarnett is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curious View Post
MrBarnett and Debra A. -- loving all your research! Thanks so much. It certainly helps us better understand.

Perhaps the August arrests were when she returned to London after hops picking? Would that involve drinking and catching up with old friends after being absent for awhile?

Can't help being curious -- Any arrest records for Annie Chapman?

Again, thanks for the great research!

curious
Hi Curious,

Nothing on Chapman to date, but some interesting new stuff on Alice McKenzie:

https://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=29363


Gary
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  #25  
Old 03-17-2018, 09:47 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
The numbers in red are entry numbers in the actual register. Where it asked for previous offences it was given in the format of number of previous offences, another entry number, and a date. In the 'previous' noted in the 1878 entry, the number and date corresponds to the entry number {in red] in the 1877 entry found.

Using the information that before 1877 the last conviction for Catherine had been 23 Aug 1876, entry number 1503, I used this to trawl through the 1876 Wandsworth prison register and found that entry number 1503 did indeed involve a woman brought in on 23 Aug 1876 but that woman's name was Ann Holder and none of her details correspond with Catherine Eddowes details.

Despite not being able to find her in Aug 1876 I wonder what was happening that every August, and only August, for three years running, Catherine got herself arrested and imprisoned.
I re checked the Eddowes 13 conviction record again after I noticed that the two pages in Alice McKenzies entry in Wandsworth were stitched together in one page image but not aligned correctly.
The 13 previous convictions that looked as though they were following along across the page from Eddowes name in the Aug 1877 Wandsworth register did in fact belong to Ann Holder, listed directly above Eddowes, and that is exactly who the entry the year before belonged to as discussed above. Eddowes 'previous' was actually blank in the 77 entry.

There are a couple of corrections to the 1877 transcript in that case

Eddowes got 3 days on Aug 8 1877, fined 2s 6d, no previous was listed. Eddowes could read and write imperfectly, religion is given as Ch and her weight was 8st 4lbs going in and out
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  #26  
Old 03-17-2018, 09:49 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Thanks Curious. I wondered about it being after hop picking season too. It now looks like it was just two years running that she was arrested and imprisoned in Aug but it's still curious.
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  #27  
Old 03-17-2018, 10:11 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
Thanks Curious. I wondered about it being after hop picking season too. It now looks like it was just two years running that she was arrested and imprisoned in Aug but it's still curious.
I don't think the hop-picking season usually started until the end of August, or early September, and lasted a few weeks, so her arrests were pre- hopping.
6th Aug 1877 was a bank holiday, for what it's worth, but are you now saying that it was Ann Holder who was taken into custody on that date, and Kate not until the 8th?
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  #28  
Old 03-17-2018, 11:34 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
I don't think the hop-picking season usually started until the end of August, or early September, and lasted a few weeks, so her arrests were pre- hopping.
6th Aug 1877 was a bank holiday, for what it's worth, but are you now saying that it was Ann Holder who was taken into custody on that date, and Kate not until the 8th?
Ann Holder and Catherine Eddowes were both taken in to custody on the 6th Aug, 8th was a typo in my post. It's the 2nd page of information that isn't correct.

This is how it should read revised:

3136
Kate Eddowes &child, age 36, height-5ft 2", hair-bro., eyes-dk, bro., complexion pale, other marks-scar right eyebrow, occupation-washer woman, magistrate-Lushington, at Lambeth, when committed-6 Aug 1877, when brought in to custody 6 Aug 1877, nature of offence-dk. & c [drunk etc.] misdemeanor, sentence 3 , fine 2s,6d expiration of term 8 Aug 1877, when discharged 8 Aug 1877, if committed before how often and what offence-blank , can read write imperfectly, religion Ch, weight going in 8st 4lbs, coming out 8st 4lbs
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  #29  
Old 03-17-2018, 11:49 PM
DJA DJA is offline
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Wonder if the magistrate was Vernon Lushington, Godfrey Lushington's twin brother?
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  #30  
Old 03-18-2018, 04:54 AM
curious curious is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
I don't think the hop-picking season usually started until the end of August, or early September, and lasted a few weeks, so her arrests were pre- hopping.
Thanks. That's right, of course. Hops-pickin' was just something unique to Kate that I could come up with. Wonder what was going on with her -- but people have been wondering that for a long time.
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