Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Witnesses: Caroline Maxwell Alibi ? - by jerryd 2 hours ago.
Witnesses: Caroline Maxwell Alibi ? - by DJA 5 hours ago.
Mary Jane Kelly: Mary Kellys Inquest - by DJA 5 hours ago.
Rippercast: Colin Wilson: Jack the Ripper Conference in Ipswich, 1996 - by Herlock Sholmes 6 hours ago.
General Suspect Discussion: Favorite suspect/s? - by Abby Normal 6 hours ago.
General Suspect Discussion: Favorite suspect/s? - by Herlock Sholmes 6 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Witnesses: Caroline Maxwell Alibi ? - (28 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Favorite suspect/s? - (14 posts)
Mary Jane Kelly: Mary Kellys Inquest - (5 posts)
Rippercast: Colin Wilson: Jack the Ripper Conference in Ipswich, 1996 - (3 posts)
Witnesses: Mizen's inquest statement reconstructed - (2 posts)
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - (2 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Social Chat > Other Mysteries > A6 Murders

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #4551  
Old 02-21-2018, 04:23 PM
NickB NickB is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 888
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moste View Post
Just watched the Panorama show from ‘66 again, can’t say I care for the man either particularly, but I fail to see how anyone can challenge the mans ardour, in his beliefs of Alphons guilt.
The Panorama programme was Justice’s first big success at getting the media to play his tune.

After an interview with Evans mentioning a paper-seller witness the narrator said: “We searched Rhyl for the paper-seller and found him” - when actually Jones was delivered to them by Evans himself.

They must have known their ‘new witness’ Charlie Jones was lying.
“He come off the bus. He says to me: ‘Where is Terry?’ I told him straight I didn’t know who Terry was. At the time I didn’t know it was the Terry I knew. He says: ‘Which way do you go to the fairground?’ So I pointed down the road and he went down the road that way and he says ‘OK.’ Then he come back and says: ‘Any idea where I can get digs?’ And I says: ‘Yes, go to number 19 Kinmel Street’. I says: ‘Mrs Jones will put you up.’”

How did he know it was a Tuesday?
“The Rhyl Journal and Advertiser was out the next day. The person asked me if we’d got it and we hadn’t got it.”

How did he know it was Hanratty?
“The reason why is I notice his shoes are very bad.”
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4552  
Old 02-21-2018, 06:38 PM
moste moste is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Vancouver Island British Columbia.
Posts: 462
Default

'Quote' After an interview with Evans mentioning a paper-seller witness the narrator said: “We searched Rhyl for the paper-seller and found him” - when actually Jones was delivered to them by Evans himself.
What was wrong with this Nick? I don't see your point.
In fact I don't understand what your getting at regarding the Rhyl witnesses. They are all simple lower working class folk, just not too articulate that's all.
I reckon they're as sound as a pound personally!

Last edited by moste : 02-21-2018 at 06:45 PM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4553  
Old 02-22-2018, 02:01 AM
Spitfire Spitfire is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 605
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickB View Post
How did he know it was a Tuesday?
“The Rhyl Journal and Advertiser was out the next day. The person asked me if we’d got it and we hadn’t got it.”

How did he know it was Hanratty?
“The reason why is I notice his shoes are very bad.”
In fairness, I think that Charlie Jones is saying that another person, not the person he is identifying as Hanratty, had just asked him if he had the Rhyl Journal and Advertiser.

It is accepted that Hanratty only knew Terry Evans as "John" so how could he be asking for Terry when he got off the bus?

My recollection is that Charlie retracted these statements before Nimmo.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4554  
Old 02-22-2018, 06:43 AM
NickB NickB is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 888
Default

Charlie Jones admitted that Evans had persuaded him to lie and that he agreed to do so as he was hard pressed for money at that time. But the interview he gave was so obviously rubbish (we can go through it line by line if you wish) and the Panorama producer Jo Menell - working with Paul Foot – would have known that it did not correspond with Hanratty’s account of searching for a guesthouse. One might excuse them by saying that they had not done enough research, but the “We searched Rhyl for the paper-seller” comment suggests deliberate deception.

The narrator also says: ‘Near the railway station, a few doors from a betting shop, he said, there was a boarding house where he found a room.’ But Hanratty never said this. The fact that Ingeldene was three doors down from a betting shop was revealed by Swanwick when he was asking Grace Jones about the local landmarks that Hanratty would have seen but did not mention.

The trick of having the supposedly independent narrator declare falsehoods was used again in the Woffinden documentary ...
http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...838#post411838
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4555  
Old 02-22-2018, 08:42 AM
Spitfire Spitfire is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 605
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickB View Post
Charlie Jones admitted that Evans had persuaded him to lie and that he agreed to do so as he was hard pressed for money at that time. But the interview he gave was so obviously rubbish (we can go through it line by line if you wish) and the Panorama producer Jo Menell - working with Paul Foot – would have known that it did not correspond with Hanratty’s account of searching for a guesthouse. One might excuse them by saying that they had not done enough research, but the “We searched Rhyl for the paper-seller” comment suggests deliberate deception.

The narrator also says: ‘Near the railway station, a few doors from a betting shop, he said, there was a boarding house where he found a room.’ But Hanratty never said this. The fact that Ingeldene was three doors down from a betting shop was revealed by Swanwick when he was asking Grace Jones about the local landmarks that Hanratty would have seen but did not mention.

The trick of having the supposedly independent narrator declare falsehoods was used again in the Woffinden documentary ...
http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...838#post411838
Mrs Grace Jones gave evidence and repeated it in the Panorama program that Hanratty occupied Room 4, which is a first floor room at the front of Ingledene. The prosecution produced Mr Sayle who said he was the occupant of Room 4, moreover Hanratty had said his room was at the back. Yet Panorama ignored this.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4556  
Old 02-28-2018, 04:13 AM
Alfie Alfie is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 190
Default The 'manager' at the Vienna Hotel

After police were called to the Alexander Court, DS Kilner phoned the Vienna to verify Alphon's alibi and, according to Hawser, "spoke to a man who said he was the Manager. This man confirmed that a man named Durrant had stayed there on the 22nd/23rd August. The following day the Manager telephoned Mr Kilner and said the Durrant had been in the Hotel from about 10.30 to 11.30 pm onwards on the night of the 22nd/23rd August 1961."

I'm assuming that this 'manager' was Nudds, but none of my sources attach a name to him. Can anyone confirm that it was in fact Nudds who twice spoke to police on August 27/28?

If it was Nudds, and if as seems likely he believed he was merely responding to a routine police inquiry rather than something connected to the A6 murder, then isn't it highly probable that this account, which tallies with his first and third statements, is the true one?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4557  
Old 02-28-2018, 05:03 AM
Graham Graham is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Midlands
Posts: 3,313
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfie View Post
After police were called to the Alexander Court, DS Kilner phoned the Vienna to verify Alphon's alibi and, according to Hawser, "spoke to a man who said he was the Manager. This man confirmed that a man named Durrant had stayed there on the 22nd/23rd August. The following day the Manager telephoned Mr Kilner and said the Durrant had been in the Hotel from about 10.30 to 11.30 pm onwards on the night of the 22nd/23rd August 1961."

I'm assuming that this 'manager' was Nudds, but none of my sources attach a name to him. Can anyone confirm that it was in fact Nudds who twice spoke to police on August 27/28?

If it was Nudds, and if as seems likely he believed he was merely responding to a routine police inquiry rather than something connected to the A6 murder, then isn't it highly probable that this account, which tallies with his first and third statements, is the true one?
Nudds was, technically, the 'manager' of The Vienna; Mr Crocker who found the cartridge-cases was something like 'group manager' of the four hotels in Mr Pichler's little hotel empire. What Nudds told DS Kilner on the phone was essentially what he later told Acott in his First Statement, thus providing Alphon with an alibi. I can't recall reading anywhere that Nudds phoned Kilner the next day. I agree with you that what Nudds told Kilner and later Acott about Alphon's whereabouts on the murder night is the truth. However, as we know, Acott was not prepared to accept this.....

Graham
__________________
We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4558  
Old 02-28-2018, 05:48 AM
NickB NickB is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 888
Default

Woffinden glosses over this on page 48 by saying: “It was apparently confirmed that Alphon had stayed the night of 22/23 August at the Vienna Hotel”.

Then on page 58 he says: “On 27th August the Vienna had been contacted by Highbury Vale Police Station, asking about one of its guests, Frederick Durrant. Subsequently, the police needed a written record of the telephone verification. As a result Juliana Galves went to Harrow Road police station on 6 September to make a statement.”

This implies falsely that it was Galves who took the initial call.

As I have shown, Nudds was actually fired on 5-Sep. Presumably this is why it was Galves who made the confirmatory statement on 6-Sep.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4559  
Old 02-28-2018, 09:16 AM
Graham Graham is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Midlands
Posts: 3,313
Default

Re: the 1966 Panorama programme featuring Justice, is there a link to this on the internet? I used to have it on video tape, but no longer. Thanks.

Graham
__________________
We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4560  
Old 02-28-2018, 09:53 AM
Alfie Alfie is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 190
Default Panorama programme

Try this Graham ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWjJrllcdkM
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.