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  #531  
Old 01-19-2018, 01:12 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Nelson View Post
You mean from notes taken by Harrison? I doubt the conversation was recorded on tape. The same with most of the other conversations. All we have are the participants' memories of what was said.
Did I suggest the conversation was recorded on tape? And I'm fairly sure you're not one of the book's authors. Perhaps the best course is to allow one of the book's authors (and it seems we might have two of them of this on this forum shortly) to reveal whether there is a written record of Harrison's telephone conversation with Whay, and whether this record reveals any more information than was published in Inside Story, rather than you speculating about it.
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  #532  
Old 01-19-2018, 03:28 PM
Scott Nelson Scott Nelson is offline
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Yes, of course. How foolish of me.
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  #533  
Old 01-19-2018, 03:51 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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No problem Scott.
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  #534  
Old 01-19-2018, 11:58 PM
Phil Carter Phil Carter is offline
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Excuse my tardiness in perhaps not being up to date on this subject..but I have some questions I would really like direct and truthful answers to if anyone knows them? Thank you.

1. We have recently been told the Diary was found in a biscuit tin.
a) What was the the colour of the tin?
b) What was the size of the tin?
c) What was the shape of the tin?
d) What was the make of the tin (the company that produced the biscuits)
e) What happened to the tin?

2. We are told the Diary was wrapped in paper when handed on.
a) was the paper wrapped on the book when in the tin itself?
b) was the paper added after the tin was opened?
c) if the answer to (2b) is no.. were there any biscuit crumb residue on the book from the tin?
d) if the answer is yes to (2b) who wrapped it, when and where?
e) what type of paper? If it was newspaper, from what year?
f) why was there a need to wrap something in a sheet/piece of paper when the Diary was fully protected and already hidden from view in the biscuit tin in the first place?

3. Why has nobody..and I mean nobody, explained any of the above either at the conference last year or in the very ample time since?

4. Does it not strike anyone else that this series of "explanations" we are expected to believe makes the whole story even more unbelievable? Perhaps it is just my old mind being cynical...

Thank you in advance for any responses. Direct..truthful responses please.

Happy New Year


Phil
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Last edited by Phil Carter : 01-20-2018 at 12:03 AM.
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  #535  
Old 01-20-2018, 03:44 AM
Observer Observer is offline
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Hi Phil

Happy New Year to you to

rjp, made a comment not too long ago to the effect that our friends across the pond seemed to have been missing out on their biscuit rations. It seems we Brits have unusually large biscuit tins in comparison to the American ones. Considering the size of the diary he rightly wondered if there were biscuit tins in the LVP which could accommodate the diary. He was promptly informed by an experienced smoke and mirror devotee that, yes, tins of such size were available in the LVP. I was sceptical that the answer to this comment was a tad too quick for the the smoke and mirror devotee to have checked out if indeed biscuit tins in the LVP, were large enough to accommodate the diary, and so i did a check. I must admit I didn't do an extensive search, but I couldn't find a reference to tins of the size which would be capable of holding the diary. Task for the weekend. Find a reference revealing whether a biscuit tin was in existence, in the LVP, which would accommodate the diary

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  #536  
Old 01-20-2018, 03:56 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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I canít answer any of your questions, Phil, but perhaps it might be helpful if I set out the evidence relating to the biscuit tin as I understand it.

Only one electrician has ever claimed to have been told that a biscuit tin was discovered under the floorboards of Battlecrease. This is Alan Davies who supposedly mentioned this piece of information to Alan Dodgson in an APS shop in Bootle in late 1992 (although we were originally told it was in late 1991).

Who told Alan Davies about a biscuit tin? Well the only name suggested by Davies has been Brian Rawes but Rawes has been adamant that he knew nothing about any biscuit tin. Daviesí actual words, when recently interviewed by James Johnston, were:

ďI remember it was Brian [Rawes] or someone, telling me that it was in a tin under the floor.Ē

So it could have been anyone who told him and this seems to have excited Robert Smith who wonders in his book if it was Eddie Lyons who mentioned the biscuit tin to Davies. But, if that was the case, one would have thought that Davies would remember being told about the discovery by the person who actually made it.

Ultimately, then, the person who supposedly told Davies about the biscuit tin is unknown.

As for the contents of the biscuit tin, Davies is supposed to have told Dodgson in late 1992 that it contained two items: a leather bound diary and a gold wedding ring. However, when interviewed by James Johnston recently, his memory appears to have improved and he now thinks he remembers a watch being in the tin too:

Thus, he told JJ:

ďYeah, I remember a watch I thinkĒ

However, at the same time, he confirmed that this was all second hand information and that ďI never seen anythingĒ.

Given that we donít know who the source of the biscuit tin story was and how reliable that person was, it could easily all have been a wind-up or an exaggeration of an existing story. Given also that the date of the APS shop conversation was, initially, wrongly stated to be late 1991 and is now stated to be late 1992, establishing the exact date is crucial because it seems it was in early 1993 that the theory that the diary had been found under the floorboards in Battlecrease was developed and this could have been known to the electricians (or some of them) which could thus have been the basic source for the "discovery of a diary under the floorboards" story apparently told by Davies to Dodgson and which had grown in the telling to include a biscuit tin.
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  #537  
Old 01-20-2018, 04:30 AM
James_J James_J is offline
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Morning all,

Great to see that the debate has not ended, and some important questions being raised.

I shan't stay long (I've got some travelling to do) - but I've just been asked to place a holding message on behalf of Mr. Keith Skinner.

Keith has applied to join the forums, and will soon be able to answer these questions directly. For all parties concerned, this is fantastic news!

Keith has been involved with this story since 1992 - and I think it is fair to say, nobody has a better knowledge of the case.

Best wishes as always, JJ.
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  #538  
Old 01-20-2018, 05:52 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by James_J View Post
Morning all,

Great to see that the debate has not ended, and some important questions being raised.

I shan't stay long (I've got some travelling to do) - but I've just been asked to place a holding message on behalf of Mr. Keith Skinner.

Keith has applied to join the forums, and will soon be able to answer these questions directly. For all parties concerned, this is fantastic news!

Keith has been involved with this story since 1992 - and I think it is fair to say, nobody has a better knowledge of the case.

Best wishes as always, JJ.
Thatís great news!

Iíll ask him the first question.
Welcome mr. skinner.

Do you believe the diary is an old hoax, new hoax or real deal and why?
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  #539  
Old 01-20-2018, 09:17 AM
James_J James_J is offline
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Hi Abby, Just passing this on from Keith.



Abby Normal



Thank you for your welcome and questions. Although Iím not

officially on board yet Ė and it is of course subject to the

Administrators approval as to whether my application is

accepted Ė Iíve asked James if he can smuggle in my response!



At the Liverpool Conference I gave my position as follows Ė

that I did not believe James Maybrick penned the Diary

and neither did I believe it was physically written by Michael

Barrett. I hear the arguments that JMís handwriting could

have altered if internal and external influences were at

work. The same observation must therefore apply to Michael

Barrett. From memory I think I am correct in recalling that

Mike J.G. put up a post where he argued that, although an

individualís personality might dramatically change under

abnormal circumstances and extreme psychological trauma

and that personís handwriting have no resemblance to his

normal, conventional style, nevertheless certain characteristics

might remain consistent Ė letter formation and structure Ė spacing Ė

spelling maybe. I donít know if this is correct but Mike J.Gís

post was one which chimed very much with my thinking Ė although

he expressed it far better than I could. We now have copious

examples of Maybrickís formal hand and in a perfect world,

with funds available, I would be pushing for an expert, scientific

comparison analysis of the many examples we have of

Maybrickís formal handwriting against the handwriting in

the Diary.



Do I believe the Diary is an old hoax?

Do I believe the Diary is a new hoax?

Do I believe the Diary is the real deal?



I cannot, Iím afraid, answer any of those questions. I canít get that far

because the Diary is still a suspect document without a provenance.

Up until circa 2004 I accepted Anne Grahamís story, albeit it with reservations

as there was no evidential support. But, for me, it was the only game

in town. Mike Barrett had failed to conclusively prove he faked the

Diary. His sworn affidavits still stand though and cannot be ignored.

Moreover, Anneís story, no matter how strange the circumstances

and motive for her secreting the Diary to Mike via a third person who

she hoped would not reveal it came from her, at least took the

chain of transmission back to Tony Devereux and then back to her.

That is where the trail ended for me in 2002. In 2004, Bruce Robinson

commissioned me to help with the research on his book and very much

as a side issue just asked me to take another look into the Diaryís

provenance. We discussed the stories associated with the electricians.

I had not been part of Paul Feldmanís investigation into the electricians

and had accepted Paulís conclusion that they were just a bunch of shysters

out to fleece him for whatever money they could. But I had never fully

bothered myself with the reasons why Paul had eliminated the electricians

from his enquiries. It was only when I had sight of the timesheets and saw

the coincidence of that March 9th 1992 date( when work, apparently

involving floorboards being lifted in the room where James Maybrick died)

on the same day that Michael Barrett (using a false surname of ĎWilliamsí)

telephoned a London Literary Agent claiming he had the Diary of Jack The

Ripper, did I wonder whether the two events might be connected.) That was

the moment I began to seriously wonder why Paul Feldman had taken the

electricians out of the frame?



Somewhat feebly I always return to Paul Beggís three key questions posited

in 1992:-



Who wrote the Diary?

When was it written?

Why was it written?



Iím sorry if you donít find my reply satisfactory but perhaps it will give you

a glimpse into my position. I hope so.



What is your own answer to your three questions?



Best Wishes, Keith.
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  #540  
Old 01-20-2018, 10:41 AM
James_J James_J is offline
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Also - passing this on from K.S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
It's good to know that no "case" was made in Inside Story.

But let's examine that for a moment. This is from pages 167-8 of Inside Story commenting on Mike Barrett's account in his January affidavit of buying the scrapbook at Outhwaite and Litherland:

"According to Shirley Harrison, Kevin Whay, a director of Outhwaite and Litherland, gave it little credence. Having searched through the company's files and archives on both sides of the alleged sale date, Whay confirmed that 'no such description or lot number corresponding with Barrett's statement exists. Furthermore we do not and have never conducted our sales in the manner in which he describes.' In a telephone conversation with Harrison soon after Barrett's affidavit was made public, Whay went further. 'Anyone who tells you they have got a lot number or details for such an album from us is talking through their hat.'"

Now it might be interesting if the full account of the telephone conversation between Harrison and Whay could be posted by one of the book's authors and we can all see if it was reported in the book in a fair and unbiased fashion.
KS received this memo from Shirley on 16.1.1995. I’m reproducing in full as the memo refers to two conversations and if I omitted the first conversation questions, understandably, would be asked as to why I had done this.


MEMO FROM SHIRLEY HARRISON

TO ROBERT [SMITH] DOREEN [MONTGOMERY] PAUL[FELDMAN]


THIS IS A RECORD OF TWO CONVERSATIONS.


(1) From Mike Barrett on Sunday January 15th 1995 at 7.00 p.m.


“Good evening, Shirley. I apologise for phoning you at a weekend. I have had Robert’s letter (telling him of his financial situation) but can’t reply because I can’t use my hand. Are you coming up on Wednesday. Good because I have a lot to say – the diary is 100% genuine you know. I can tell you all about Mrs Hammersmith too – and she proves it is 100% genuine. I have known about her since you did your Granada broadcast – they rang me. They didn’t ring you and I know all about her relatives too. I’ll tell you all about it on Wednesday.” There was a lot more – but repeats about anne [sic] and Caroline and wanting to see Anne etc etc – “no animosity” of course.


(2) With Mr. Kevin Waye [sic] – one of the seniors at Outhwaite and Sutherland [sic], auctioneers on Monday morning, January 16th.

He said that as far as he knows there have been no enquiries about the purchase of the album in which the diary is written. Between 1990-1991 they held about 300 or more auctions and items such as an old photo album would have been in a job lot marked “miscellaneous items.” There would quite likely be several “Mr Williams” or “Mr Jones” as a lot of people use a pseudonym when buying at auctions. “Anyone who tells you they have got a lot number or details of such an album from us “is talking through their hat.”

I am going to see him, with Sally [Evemy] on Thursday morning.

END OF SHIRLEY HARRISON MEMO


For information, that which appears highlighted in red, was not included in Inside Story. But neither was it deliberately excluded. I can’t now remember why it was not reproduced in its entirety – and whether its detail supports or weakens Mike Barrett’s claim! However, in April 1999, I interviewed Mike Barrett at the Cloak & Dagger Club in London in front of a crowded room. Mike had made it known he would produce the auction ticket and that, effectively, would have killed off the Diary. When I asked him to let everybody see it – he refused. I have a feeling he said that he was worried he might be arrested or that it was back in his hotel room and that he would post it to us. However, from that moment on we never heard anything more about the auction ticket.


The following extract appears on page 315 of The Diary Of Jack The Ripper – Shirley Harrison – 1998.


(3) On January 30th 1997 Doreen Montgomery received the following statement from Kevin Whay, director of Outhwaite and Litherland. ‘Having searched through our files and archives on either side of the alleged sale dates I can confirm that no such information or lot number corresponding with his [Barrett’s] statement exists. Furthermore we do not and have never conducted our sales in the manner in which he describes.



Best, K.S.
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