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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Hutchinson, George

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  #111  
Old 12-14-2017, 05:17 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Originally Posted by caz View Post


No it didn't, Michael.

How in the name of sanity does waiting outside Kelly's room for 45 minutes, while God knows who is inside, doing God knows what to her, then leaving them to it and walking off into the night, add up to 'a friend looking out for the victim'??

Love,

Caz
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Because Caz, the unknown stranger suddenly turned into a friend of Marys, someone who knew her for a few years, and someone who she felt she could approach for a few coins. The fact that he is hanging around could be construed as him wanting to be sure that Mary was in no danger from A man. That's where the comment came from. Perhaps that's the way it was perceived.

The fact he waited four days kind of negates that if so.
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  #112  
Old 12-14-2017, 05:27 AM
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Hi Caz,

I wonder how many Ripperologists have actually spent a night on the streets? Precious few, I imagine, or they wouldn't find Hutchinson's behavior so suspicious.

The only thing Hutchinson was killing was time. He missed his curfew and was now stuck on the street for a tedious six hours...waiting waiting waiting for the sun to come up.

Standing across from Millers Court for 45 mintues?

Big deal. The building had an awning on it. It was November and spitting rain off and on. A perfect place to stand.

Further, he had just seen Kelly with an obviously wealthy client. If she was suddenly 'in clover' he knows--or hopes--he can borrow a few p when the coffee stalls open back up.

It's really not all that hard to figure out, is it?

That's what he is telling Abbeline. He doesn't need to spell it out. He lent HER a few pence on occasion, and now he wants some in return. Surely this toff will pay well. And tomorrow is Lord Mayor's Day, after all. No one is more 'into' these civic holidays than the abject poor who have nothing else to look forward to. It would be simply too bloody tomorrow if he can't scrounge up enough for a pint or a pinch of tobacco.

So, with nothing else better to do, he waits.

People in the lowest 'strata' have a sort of informal 'code' of borrowing and scrounging to help each other out. And there was probably no worse scrounge than the unemployed male in the East End who must have been forever trying to squeeze the 'unfortunates' who had one sure way of coming up with 3 p.

Abberline wasn't the least bit suspicious because he shouldn't have been. H Division was his turf for years and he knew it all too well.

And yes, of course, in the back of his mind, if the rain turned really bad, Hutch was hoping in his heart of hearts that he might spend a couple of hours indoors with a not bad looking Irish prostitute.

Nothing unusual about any of it. Except the client.
Hi rj,

I get all that. I really do. That's why I think Abberline wasn't suspicious. But Hutch didn't state that he waited there for 45 minutes 'because I had nothing better to do'. He stated that he 'stood there... to see if they came out. They did not so I went away'.

So the obvious question Abberline would have asked was: "Why did you want to see if they came out? What was it to you?" The woman in the case would be found horribly butchered in the morning. Why wouldn't Abberline have been interested in Hutch's interest in the couple?

Hutch's answer presumably gave Abberline the extra info he needed to satisfy himself that his given reason made perfect sense.

Love,

Caz
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Last edited by caz : 12-14-2017 at 05:30 AM.
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  #113  
Old 12-14-2017, 06:02 AM
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caz caz is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Because Caz, the unknown stranger suddenly turned into a friend of Marys, someone who knew her for a few years, and someone who she felt she could approach for a few coins. The fact that he is hanging around could be construed as him wanting to be sure that Mary was in no danger from A man. That's where the comment came from. Perhaps that's the way it was perceived.

The fact he waited four days kind of negates that if so.
I'm really sorry, Michael, but I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Unknown stranger?

How could Hutch possibly have implied he was making sure Kelly was in no danger from the man inside the room with her while Hutch was outside - until he got fed up waiting to see if they came out and pushed off with no attempt to check if she was alive or dead? What's more, he actually said the man gave him no cause to fear for Kelly's safety. It doesn't get any clearer, Michael. Hutch was not claiming to have been Kelly's guardian angel, and didn't imagine she needed one.

Love,

Caz
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  #114  
Old 12-14-2017, 06:15 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Do we just accept that Hutchinson was telling the truth about knowing Mary and that he occasionally gave her money? Or was he just a sad ne’er-do-well trying to, simultaneously, gain kudos by ‘seeing’ the ripper and paint himself as the generous benefactor?
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  #115  
Old 12-14-2017, 06:34 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Do we just accept that Hutchinson was telling the truth about knowing Mary and that he occasionally gave her money? Or was he just a sad ne’er-do-well trying to, simultaneously, gain kudos by ‘seeing’ the ripper and paint himself as the generous benefactor?
HI HS
well both, but he didn't make the story up from whole cloth, He knew her. he was there waiting and watching for her. but I don't think he saw her that night, and Aman is definitely made up.
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Last edited by Abby Normal : 12-14-2017 at 06:46 AM.
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  #116  
Old 12-14-2017, 06:45 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Tell me, if Mrs Long was an upstanding woman, what happened to her 'suspect', the "shabby-genteel foreigner"?

What happened to Schwartz's 'suspect', the "broad-shouldered man"?

What happened to Lawende's 'suspect', the "red-neckerchief-man"?

Then of course we still have Mary Cox, so what happened to "Blotchy"?

C'mon Varqm, if you think the police lost interest in Hutchinson & his suspect because they make no further mention of him, then explain why Lawende, Schwartz, Long & Cox are no longer mentioned either.

Did they lose interest in all their suspects, or were the other witnesses liars too?
Then, they secretly believed some nobody called Kozminski was the killer, without a shred of evidence, or an established sighting?
Hi Wick
none of those witnesses got nearly a good a view as Hutch. and cox and lawende didn't even hear the man speak, long and Schwartz only heard him speak one word.

Hutch followed his man, heard him speak extensively, got a great description, down to his spats and horseshoe pin, even the mans religion, said he thinks hes seen him before and knows the area where he lives!

hutch should be best witness by far and Aman should be suspect number one.

and yet none of the police later give his man any credence and neither do we.

Because his story is bullshit and everyone knows it.
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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #117  
Old 12-14-2017, 06:49 AM
rjpalmer rjpalmer is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
It was only after he left the court, around 3:00 am, that he found his "regular place" was closed.
I don't see it that way.

Here is what Hutchinson said:

"After I left the court I walked about all night, as the place where I usually sleep was closed."

But surely that doesn't mean to say he just now realizes (at 3 a.m.) that the Victoria W. M.'s Home was closed?

I don't see it. These were his usual digs; 'closed' means 'curfew,' and he would have known the curfew. Half-way from Romford he already knew he was 'screwed,' and this is confirmed when, reaching the East End, he hears the clock strike 2 a.m. Hence he loiters in Fashion & Dean & environs until 3 a.m. and then wanders around until daybreak, because, he states, "the place where I usually sleep was closed." (Almost an afterthought after explaining the entire night's movements). That's how I've always read it.

Hi Caz,

Same answer as above. Yes, pragmatically, George DID indeed state that his motive for loitering was 'to see the man come out.' True, but isn't curiosity entirely relative? The way I see it, George could have been curious (mildly) because he had "nothing better to do." In other words, we are both right. If George was interested, it was only because there was a handy awning, he already missed his kip, he might yet get lucky.

I think Abberline could understand that logic.

Abbey: I must remain cryptic. This has been pointed out before, but Abberline states in his report to his superiors that he "interrogated" Hutchinson--not that he interviewed him. What does that imply? Well, for one, that Frederick is not the dupe he is usually purported to be.
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  #118  
Old 12-14-2017, 07:02 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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What's more, he actually said the man gave him no cause to fear for Kelly's safety.
Which doesn't quite square with his rather creepy description of Astrakhan Man - "he looked at me stern", "very surly looking", "Jewish/foreign appearance", "small parcel with a kind of strap around it", etc. This at the height of the Ripper scare, and Hutch thought this guy was nothing to worry about? Hard to believe.
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  #119  
Old 12-14-2017, 07:11 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Do we just accept that Hutchinson was telling the truth about knowing Mary and that he occasionally gave her money?
He claimed that he'd known Kelly for five years, which - if her biography has any grains of truth in it - is difficult to believe in itself, as she apparently had only moved to London 4 years previously. That aside, we can say with some confidence that she'd only arrived in Spitalfields within the last two years, prior to which she'd lived at Stepney and around the Ratcliff Highway. To my mind it's rather unlikely that Hutchinson's trajectory took him to those places at the same time as Kelly and that, at best, he was likely exaggerating the length of their acquaintance; at worst, he made it up in order to make his encounter with her, and the subsequent interest he took in her liaison with Astrakhan Man, seem more plausible.
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  #120  
Old 12-14-2017, 07:14 AM
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caz caz is offline
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Originally Posted by rjpalmer View Post
Hi Caz,

Same answer as above. Yes, pragmatically, George DID indeed state that his motive for loitering was 'to see the man come out.' True, but isn't curiosity entirely relative? The way I see it, George could have been curious (mildly) because he had "nothing better to do." In other words, we are both right. If George was interested, it was only because there was a handy awning, he already missed his kip, he might yet get lucky.

I think Abberline could understand that logic.

Abbey: I must remain cryptic. This has been pointed out before, but Abberline states in his report to his superiors that he "interrogated" Hutchinson--not that he interviewed him. What does that imply? Well, for one, that Frederick is not the dupe he is usually purported to be.
No, he is not that dupe, rj, but more than that he had a tongue in his head and didn't need to try and understand Hutch's logic. He had him there and merely had to ask the question we can't: "So, George, were you waiting to see if the man with the murdered woman would come out again because you were mildly curious and had nothing better to do? Or were you hoping to 'get lucky' and, if so, how so?"

However the response was couched, Abberline professed himself happy with it.

Love,

Caz
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