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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Tumblety, Francis

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  #81  
Old 11-20-2017, 05:00 PM
jmenges jmenges is offline
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Quoting Pinkerton

Quote:
Firstly, if Tumblety WAS in fact "intersex" this tends to make a claim of him sexually assaulting ANY ONE difficult to believe. Not IMPOSSIBLE mind you, but more difficult to believe. Not to get too graphic but many intersex males have much less erectile tissue which makes sex very difficult...ESPECIALLY if you attempted to FORCE sex on someone.
In Norris' testimony he states that Tumblety, with a knife in his hand, locked the door to his room, unzipped Norris' pants and fondled him. Norris then says Tumblety undressed and laid in bed and insisted that Norris have sex with him and tried to coax him and bribe him to do this. Tumblety would be on the receiving end. If this had taken place in the UK it might amount to gross indecency and indecent assault.

JM
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  #82  
Old 11-20-2017, 05:02 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
The charges against Tumblety were four counts of gross indecency (with four males) and four counts of indecent assault (upon the same four males).

As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, the wording in the charges was not "with force of arms", it was "with Force and Arms" (my emphasis).
Hi David
Thanks. Do you have any other insight of what actually took place though? I mean is this rape?
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  #83  
Old 11-20-2017, 05:11 PM
Pcdunn Pcdunn is offline
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I thought the evidence found against Tumblety were four letters from four different men, the contents of which concerned 'indecency" and that were either on his person or among his possessions. This certainly doesn't sound very violent at all, Abby.
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  #84  
Old 11-20-2017, 05:35 PM
jmenges jmenges is offline
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The first charge stating "with Force and Arms" indicates that Tumblety forced the men to commit an act. The second charge stated he "unlawfully and indecently did make an indecent assault" on the four men. The charges were based more than on just letters. Though to what extent the men, and even Norris, were "victims" is questionable. Tumblety offered Norris money which he refused. Fisher, Brice, Crowley and Doughty may have accepted the money.

JM
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  #85  
Old 11-20-2017, 06:51 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmenges View Post
The first charge stating "with Force and Arms" indicates that Tumblety forced the men to commit an act. The second charge stated he "unlawfully and indecently did make an indecent assault" on the four men. The charges were based more than on just letters. Though to what extent the men, and even Norris, were "victims" is questionable. Tumblety offered Norris money which he refused. Fisher, Brice, Crowley and Doughty may have accepted the money.

JM
Thanks

Well sounds like they were victims to me. Sexual assault with a knife (Norris) and indecent forcible assault (London). I mean that’s rape isn’t it?
One step away from murder.
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  #86  
Old 11-20-2017, 08:29 PM
Pcdunn Pcdunn is offline
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Thanks, JM, very informative.
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  #87  
Old 11-21-2017, 04:33 AM
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caz caz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmenges View Post
In Norris' testimony he states that Tumblety, with a knife in his hand, locked the door to his room, unzipped Norris' pants and fondled him. Norris then says Tumblety undressed and laid in bed and insisted that Norris have sex with him and tried to coax him and bribe him to do this. Tumblety would be on the receiving end. If this had taken place in the UK it might amount to gross indecency and indecent assault.

JM
I'm not a man, so I don't know if it's possible for a straight, or otherwise non-consenting male to get an erection while being fondled by another male brandishing a knife. I would imagine not, but maybe we need someone with that exact experience to tell us.

Merely fondling an unwilling recipient while carrying a knife would fit the definition of indecent assault, but if this is what happened, would it not suggest it was Tumblety with the erection while this was going on?

It all sounds a bit limp [if you'll excuse the pun] if Tumblety's bits and pieces were not quite as other men's.

I had long assumed the sexual activity with those four young men - whatever form it took [no cctv or independent witnesses, presumably] - was consensual, but the only way for charges against Tumblety to stick was for the police to get his partners to say they were unwilling victims of a forced assault. In short they had 'normal' appetites, but had just been in the wrong place at the wrong time. In that way, they escaped any charges and escaped any stigma, and everyone except Tumblety were happy bunnies.

As for Norris, he must have been lying. He wasn't alive all those years before Coronation Street.

Love,

Caz
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  #88  
Old 11-21-2017, 04:45 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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I know these folks are long dead and men, but seems to me a bit of downplaying and laughing off of what he was apparently accused of doing.
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  #89  
Old 11-21-2017, 08:06 AM
DirectorDave DirectorDave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caz View Post
I'm not a man, so I don't know if it's possible for a straight, or otherwise non-consenting male to get an erection while being fondled by another male brandishing a knife. I would imagine not, but maybe we need someone with that exact experience to tell us.
I can't speak about having any kind of experience like that or speak for any other bloke but erections can happen at the most inopportune moments.

I had an examination down there by a rather elderly male doctor and if it had went on any longer than it had things might have got quite embarrassing if you catch my drift.

I only like girls, but just someone touching down there was enough, to start the blood flowing so to speak.
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  #90  
Old 11-21-2017, 11:30 AM
GUT GUT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caz View Post
I'm not a man, so I don't know if it's possible for a straight, or otherwise non-consenting male to get an erection while being fondled by another male brandishing a knife. I would imagine not, but maybe we need someone with that exact experience to tell us.

Merely fondling an unwilling recipient while carrying a knife would fit the definition of indecent assault, but if this is what happened, would it not suggest it was Tumblety with the erection while this was going on?

It all sounds a bit limp [if you'll excuse the pun] if Tumblety's bits and pieces were not quite as other men's.

I had long assumed the sexual activity with those four young men - whatever form it took [no cctv or independent witnesses, presumably] - was consensual, but the only way for charges against Tumblety to stick was for the police to get his partners to say they were unwilling victims of a forced assault. In short they had 'normal' appetites, but had just been in the wrong place at the wrong time. In that way, they escaped any charges and escaped any stigma, and everyone except Tumblety were happy bunnies.

As for Norris, he must have been lying. He wasn't alive all those years before Coronation Street.

Love,

Caz
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1. Yes it is possible to get an erection while being raped, I wonder if you’d ask the same about a woman, can she get aroused or have an irgasm while being raped? I think that defence was rejected about the time Jack finished his spree, or not that long after. Though some idiots still try to use it as a defence to this day.

2.not all sexual assault involves “intercourse” there are other things go on you know.

3. No, consensual homosexual activity was still a crime upto 1967
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