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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Tumblety, Francis

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  #71  
Old 11-20-2017, 11:52 AM
GUT GUT is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
LOL. I think this find is pretty big in its own right let alone a check mark for the Dr Ts supporters as a ripper suspect, for sure.
Totally agree.

Iím one who doesnít think Tumblety is our man.

Always thought he was a suspect.

the more Mike finds the more interested I become.

Iím a bit of a sucker for evidence, not invention and one thing I am dead sure of is I need to clear the police suspects if the day before I bother with anyone else because the police actually had the evidence that has been lost to us.

This bloke the more we find the less reason we have to remove him from the list.
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  #72  
Old 11-20-2017, 01:30 PM
Pinkerton Pinkerton is offline
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Please excuse my lateness to this thread. And I have not had the chance to listen to the Podcast in question yet though I intend to when I get the time. I seem to be hearing two claims from people who have listened to the podcast concerning Francis Tumblety--ONE that Tumblety was what we call today "intersex" (previously called hermaphroditic) and TWO that he is said to have committed sexual assault against four people in the East End when he was there (NOT engaged in acts of consensual sex).

I also don't have a dog in the fight and will just give my first impression of hearing this information for the first time. This is me playing devils advocate mind you...Firstly, if Tumblety WAS in fact "intersex" this tends to make a claim of him sexually assaulting ANY ONE difficult to believe. Not IMPOSSIBLE mind you, but more difficult to believe. Not to get too graphic but many intersex males have much less erectile tissue which makes sex very difficult...ESPECIALLY if you attempted to FORCE sex on someone. I also tend to believe that the police were simply referring to a sexual act between males and not implying there was an actual sexual assault committed.

Secondly, even if they WERE implying an actual sexual assault I can only say that if I were a homosexual back in 1888 England (which was both illegal and considered a mental illness), and policemen found me in a compromising position with another male, I think I would say whatever it took to not be both "outed" to the public, as well as possibly prosecuted. So if a policeman steers me in the direction "You say you aren't a homosexual but you were caught in the act with this man...are you saying then that the man sexually assaulted you?". I would take this and probably run with it. And of course policemen of the time during the Ripper crimes are looking for anyone they would have considered "off" or what they considered showing signs of "insanity". Police of this period unfortunately would have lumped homosexuality in with things we would today consider extremely harmful such as pedophilia or rape. And Tumblety, this eccentric American, has been caught in compromising positions with other males in the East End during the Autumn of 1888. OF COURSE they are going to see him as a possible suspect! They had no sense of what kind of a person does these sorts of acts during this time.

Also it always seemed to me that Tumblety saying that he had a "grudge" against women was most likely an excuse for him to explain the fact the he was rarely seen in the company of women because he was in fact not romantically interested in women (because he was gay). Being outed as a homosexual back in 1888 would have been catastrophic to a person's well being so any person in this position is likely to want to throw off suspicion of this in any way they can. Many people like poet Crane Heart took their own life when they were publicly outed and that was even in the 1930's (50 years later). And of course we all know what happened to Oscar Wilde.
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  #73  
Old 11-20-2017, 01:43 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Please excuse my lateness to this thread. And I have not had the chance to listen to the Podcast in question yet though I intend to when I get the time. I seem to be hearing two claims from people who have listened to the podcast concerning Francis Tumblety--ONE that Tumblety was what we call today "intersex" (previously called hermaphroditic) and TWO that he is said to have committed sexual assault against four people in the East End when he was there (NOT engaged in acts of consensual sex).

I also don't have a dog in the fight and will just give my first impression of hearing this information for the first time. This is me playing devils advocate mind you...Firstly, if Tumblety WAS in fact "intersex" this tends to make a claim of him sexually assaulting ANY ONE difficult to believe. Not IMPOSSIBLE mind you, but more difficult to believe. Not to get too graphic but many intersex males have much less erectile tissue which makes sex very difficult...ESPECIALLY if you attempted to FORCE sex on someone. I also tend to believe that the police were simply referring to a sexual act between males and not implying there was an actual sexual assault committed.

Secondly, even if they WERE implying an actual sexual assault I can only say that if I were a homosexual back in 1888 England (which was both illegal and considered a mental illness), and policemen found me in a compromising position with another male, I think I would say whatever it took to not be both "outed" to the public, as well as possibly prosecuted. So if a policeman steers me in the direction "You say you aren't a homosexual but you were caught in the act with this man...are you saying then that the man sexually assaulted you?". I would take this and probably run with it. And of course policemen of the time during the Ripper crimes are looking for anyone they would have considered "off" or what they considered showing signs of "insanity". Police of this period unfortunately would have lumped homosexuality in with things we would today consider extremely harmful such as pedophilia or rape. And Tumblety, this eccentric American, has been caught in compromising positions with other males in the East End during the Autumn of 1888. OF COURSE they are going to see him as a possible suspect! They had no sense of what kind of a person does these sorts of acts during this time.

Also it always seemed to me that Tumblety saying that he had a "grudge" against women was most likely an excuse for him to explain the fact the he was rarely seen in the company of women because he was in fact not romantically interested in women (because he was gay). Being outed as a homosexual back in 1888 would have been catastrophic to a person's well being so any person in this position is likely to want to throw off suspicion of this in any way they can. Many people like poet Crane Heart took their own life when they were publicly outed and that was even in the 1930's (50 years later). And of course we all know what happened to Oscar Wilde.
hi Pink
to me the two most important things to come out of this is the fact that he stated that prostitutes should be disemboweled and that he showed he had knives/surgical incidents. so we have motive now and means and with him being there-opportunity.

re-using his hate of women as an excuse for homosexuality? don't think so-I mean he said this to Norris who he was trying to bed, so that dosnt really make sense. plus back then society was more private abou that sort of thing. he didn't need to make excuses for not being seen with women.

also, could someone please tell me more specifically what the charges and circumstances he was arrested for in London? did he try to rape someone with a weapon?
did he proposition the wrong man who then went to police? I mean how serious and violent was it?
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  #74  
Old 11-20-2017, 02:46 PM
Pinkerton Pinkerton is offline
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plus back then society was more private abou that sort of thing. he didn't need to make excuses for not being seen with women.
Abbie, I take your point about Norris. As to society being more private about that sort of thing, I think this shouldn't be overestimated. I saw a documentary about President Buchanon in the U.S. who was the only lifelong bachelor who served as president from 1857-1861. MANY congressmen and former politicians made disparaging remarks behind Buchanon's back because they suspected he was homosexual (he also had a male friend he lived with). This included Andrew Jackson who made such remarks when Buchanon served as a congressman. And it is actually likely that Buchanon was NOT gay but him being a lifelong bachelor was enough to get people talking even during the Victorian era.

I personally am extremely skeptical that Tumblety could have been the Ripper. Firstly, if you look purely at statistics the vast majority of serial killers who don't murder for financial gain do it because they are sexual sadists. Especially serial killers who kill prostitutes. And sexual sadists who are gay tend to murder males, not females (Jefferey Dahmer, William Macdonald, Herb Baumeister, John Wayne Gacy, etc). Secondly, the Ripper MUST have known the East End area extremely well to be able to murder women undetected when policemen would literally pass the same spot every 30 minutes. And he did this in a densely populated area. I can't see an out of town American just drop into the East End and manage to pull that off.

I personally think ALL of the suspects that have been put forward during the time of the murders were TERRIBLE. But that's just my opinion.
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  #75  
Old 11-20-2017, 03:11 PM
DirectorDave DirectorDave is offline
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Quote:
also, could someone please tell me more specifically what the charges and circumstances he was arrested for in London? did he try to rape someone with a weapon?
did he proposition the wrong man who then went to police? I mean how serious and violent was it?
Hi Abby,

Everything that I have read and seen the charge was "Gross Indecency".


Quote:
(from Wiki) Gross indecency is a legal term that was originally used to criminalize sexual activity between men short of sodomy, which required penetration. The term was first used in British law in a statute of the British Parliament in 1885 and was carried forward in other statutes throughout the British Empire.
I'm not sure where Pinkerton is getting "he is said to have committed sexual assault against four people in the East End"? Or where the claim that it wasn't consensual is coming from, (it may not have been, but I don't recall any evidence stating such).
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  #76  
Old 11-20-2017, 03:25 PM
Pinkerton Pinkerton is offline
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I'm not sure where Pinkerton is getting "he is said to have committed sexual assault against four people in the East End"? Or where the claim that it wasn't consensual is coming from, (it may not have been, but I don't recall any evidence stating such).
Director Dave, #60 in the thread brought up the fact that four men claimed to have been sexually assaulted by Tumblety.
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  #77  
Old 11-20-2017, 03:33 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Hi Abby,

Everything that I have read and seen the charge was "Gross Indecency".




I'm not sure where Pinkerton is getting "he is said to have committed sexual assault against four people in the East End"? Or where the claim that it wasn't consensual is coming from, (it may not have been, but I don't recall any evidence stating such).
Thanks DD
But what did he actually do to get that charge?
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but a dream within a dream?"

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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #78  
Old 11-20-2017, 03:41 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Pinkerton View Post
Abbie, I take your point about Norris. As to society being more private about that sort of thing, I think this shouldn't be overestimated. I saw a documentary about President Buchanon in the U.S. who was the only lifelong bachelor who served as president from 1857-1861. MANY congressmen and former politicians made disparaging remarks behind Buchanon's back because they suspected he was homosexual (he also had a male friend he lived with). This included Andrew Jackson who made such remarks when Buchanon served as a congressman. And it is actually likely that Buchanon was NOT gay but him being a lifelong bachelor was enough to get people talking even during the Victorian era.

I personally am extremely skeptical that Tumblety could have been the Ripper. Firstly, if you look purely at statistics the vast majority of serial killers who don't murder for financial gain do it because they are sexual sadists. Especially serial killers who kill prostitutes. And sexual sadists who are gay tend to murder males, not females (Jefferey Dahmer, William Macdonald, Herb Baumeister, John Wayne Gacy, etc). Secondly, the Ripper MUST have known the East End area extremely well to be able to murder women undetected when policemen would literally pass the same spot every 30 minutes. And he did this in a densely populated area. I can't see an out of town American just drop into the East End and manage to pull that off.

I personally think ALL of the suspects that have been put forward during the time of the murders were TERRIBLE. But that's just my opinion.
Hi pink
No. I hear you. Iíve got T down on my list too. I put him in my second tier of viable candidates. He was a big ostentatious guy, and doesnít fit any of the witness descriptions. Also, as you pointed out, serial killers go after the sex they are attracted to, and yes the ripper must have known WC like the back of his hand and T couldnít have.

I know Iíll probably get laughed at for this, but if T was involved at all, I think he might have found some WC local to procure specimens he wanted. You know what with the story of the American doctor and the rumor of T having specimens.

And again, like you, I think all the suspects are weak. Some are just less weak than others.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #79  
Old 11-20-2017, 03:44 PM
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Hi Abby, Pink.

Pinkerton is correct, there is mention of "Assault against 4 men with force of arms", does appear in ripper notes.

I think the Gross Indecency must include penetration? I would say that leaves only one opening so to speak, but in Tumblety's case it could have been 2?
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  #80  
Old 11-20-2017, 04:44 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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The charges against Tumblety were four counts of gross indecency (with four males) and four counts of indecent assault (upon the same four males).

As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, the wording in the charges was not "with force of arms", it was "with Force and Arms" (my emphasis).
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