Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Non-Fiction: Elizabeth Stride and Jack the Ripper: The Life and Death of the Reputed Third Victim. - by Herlock Sholmes 5 minutes ago.
Kosminski, Aaron: My theory on Kosminski - by Elamarna 2 hours ago.
Doctors and Coroners: Baxter's influence on Ripper lore - by Sam Flynn 2 hours ago.
Kosminski, Aaron: My theory on Kosminski - by Jeff Leahy 3 hours ago.
Doctors and Coroners: Baxter's influence on Ripper lore - by Joshua Rogan 3 hours ago.
Doctors and Coroners: Baxter's influence on Ripper lore - by Joshua Rogan 4 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Shades of Whitechapel: Caught!? Long Island Serial Killer suspect - (11 posts)
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - (7 posts)
Doctors and Coroners: Baxter's influence on Ripper lore - (7 posts)
Kosminski, Aaron: My theory on Kosminski - (6 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: How about the "Bad Cop" ??? - (4 posts)
Non-Fiction: Elizabeth Stride and Jack the Ripper: The Life and Death of the Reputed Third Victim. - (3 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Witnesses

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #61  
Old 11-19-2017, 07:23 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 5,418
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by etenguy View Post
You may be right, or the frenzy of stabbing may have been the result of a growing dissatisfaction within him ending by killing her with a longer bladed knife out of frustration. Hence stabbing was not part of his on-going method.

The majority opinion agrees with you, hence Martha Tabram is not included in the canon. However, I am struck by all the other similarities and find it difficult to dismiss her as a potential ripper victim.
Hi eten
For me it all fits together that she was a ripper victim. An early botched attempt with a clasp/pen knife on mill wood who survived. The killer realizes he needs a bigger knife so next time brings it with him. In the heat of the moment attack on tab ram he uses the first smaller knife out of habit and then finishes her off with the larger knife.

However, this attack, though killing the victim was too sloppy and inefficient and not really what he wanted. So in thinking how to kill more quickly and quietly he devises another plan which he uses on his next victim.

Typical of serial killers early clumsy attempts which they refine as they progress to their mature MO.

And then you add in all the other factors-same victimolgy, same area, same time frame, the overkill,and the clincher for me-The victim found on her back with the skirt raised to expose the abdomen, like the others.

It all fits. She was killed by the ripper.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 11-19-2017, 09:52 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is online now
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: South london
Posts: 3,715
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi eten
For me it all fits together that she was a ripper victim. An early botched attempt with a clasp/pen knife on mill wood who survived. The killer realizes he needs a bigger knife so next time brings it with him. In the heat of the moment attack on tab ram he uses the first smaller knife out of habit and then finishes her off with the larger knife.

However, this attack, though killing the victim was too sloppy and inefficient and not really what he wanted. So in thinking how to kill more quickly and quietly he devises another plan which he uses on his next victim.

Typical of serial killers early clumsy attempts which they refine as they progress to their mature MO.

And then you add in all the other factors-same victimolgy, same area, same time frame, the overkill,and the clincher for me-The victim found on her back with the skirt raised to expose the abdomen, like the others.

It all fits. She was killed by the ripper.
Abby

While I am still open on Tabram, you make good points, particularly the signature raised skirts.


Steve
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 11-19-2017, 10:26 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 8,926
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
While I am still open on Tabram, you make good points, particularly the signature raised skirts.
I don't see much evidence of the Ripper's signature in that, with Tabram, there were multiple - indeed, umpteen - stabs, but no cuts. Furthermore, most of those stabs were aimed at the stomach, chest and neck, with her lower abdomen comparatively unscathed.

As to skirts, she was a prostitute who had presumably been serving her client, so her skirt could well have been lifted with that purpose in mind. This may have been the case with some of the Canonical victims, but it's arguably more likely that their skirts were lifted to facilitate the long cuts to their lower abdomens, the evisceration and removal of organs - neither of which remotely featured in Tabram's murder.

If there are signatures here, they're very, very different ones.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 11-19-2017, 10:40 AM
Hunter Hunter is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,684
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I get the distinct impression that Tabram's killer "enjoyed" stabbing her, somehow. Given the sheer number of stabs, he must have been on some kind of a high as he did it, and/or in the aftermath. I can't quite imagine someone coming down from that to being satisfied with a few cuts (however severe) and NO stabs to speak of.
Catherine Eddowes was stabbed in the groin as was Nichols according to Spratling. In Nichols' case some of the cuts may have started as stabs, then dragging the blade down.

With the exception of Elizabeth Stride, all of the victims from Smith to McKenzie suffered trauma to the genital area. Considering the unprecedented nature of this has to be significant along with the fact that not a single individual was ever apprehended for even one atrocity.
__________________
Best Wishes,
Hunter
____________________________________________

When evidence is not to be had, theories abound. Even the most plausible of them do not carry conviction- London Times Nov. 10.1888
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 11-19-2017, 11:53 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 8,926
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Catherine Eddowes was stabbed in the groin as was Nichols according to Spratling.
Only another 35-plus stabs, most of them to the upper body, and we might have a case for comparison with Tabram. As it is, the resemblance is tenuous at best.
Quote:
In Nichols' case some of the cuts may have started as stabs, then dragging the blade down.
Many, if not most, cuts require the blade to puncture the skin, but that doesn't make them stabs. Stabs just puncture the skin and come perpendicularly back out, which is what happened to Tabram, unequivocally, 39 times over.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 11-19-2017, 12:37 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,865
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Only another 35-plus stabs, most of them to the upper body, and we might have a case for comparison with Tabram. As it is, the resemblance is tenuous at best.
Many, if not most, cuts require the blade to puncture the skin, but that doesn't make them stabs. Stabs just puncture the skin and come perpendicularly back out, which is what happened to Tabram, unequivocally, 39 times over.
The knife that caused the many small wounds will have been a small knife, possibly with a small handle and a shortish blade.
That kind of knife lends itself poorly to making the kind of cuts that were made to the victims from Polly Nichols and onwards.

Maybe that is the easy explanation. Maybe the killer wanted to get at the inside of Tabram, but settled for doing so by means of stabs only, since the knife did not lend itself to cutting and opening the abdomen.

One may of course argue that a larger dagger was also used, but A/ we don´t know if the same man used both weapons, and B/ if it was just the one man, he may not have fixed his intentions other than to a low level; knife-abdomen-get into. Equally, C/ the sternum weapon can have been rather a blunt and sturdy blade, unsuited for amateur surgery too.

If the killer had had a long, razorsharp, narrow and more flexible blade à la the Chapman weapon, then maybe Tabram would have lost an organ or two. There is no knowing.

I think the geographical location, Tabrams prostitution, the silence of the deed, the raised skirt, the clenched hands of Tabram and the overall timing mean that the Ripper must be a hot lead in the case.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 11-19-2017, 01:43 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 5,418
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I don't see much evidence of the Ripper's signature in that, with Tabram, there were multiple - indeed, umpteen - stabs, but no cuts. Furthermore, most of those stabs were aimed at the stomach, chest and neck, with her lower abdomen comparatively unscathed.

As to skirts, she was a prostitute who had presumably been serving her client, so her skirt could well have been lifted with that purpose in mind. This may have been the case with some of the Canonical victims, but it's arguably more likely that their skirts were lifted to facilitate the long cuts to their lower abdomens, the evisceration and removal of organs - neither of which remotely featured in Tabram's murder.

If there are signatures here, they're very, very different ones.
Hi Sam
Yes there really isn’t the same sig, I agree. The only possible comparison would be overkill vis knife perhaps.

However, that being said, if she was his first kill, he may have still been working out what was his true intention would be (sig) and how best to go about it (mo).however, she did have some stabs to the privates, so perhaps early sign of interest in that area.
But I totally see what your saying, on the surface it does apear different.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 11-19-2017, 02:31 PM
Harry D Harry D is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 2,024
Default

Don't really think the raised skirts can be considered a definite signature element. Surely any woman killed under these circumstances is going to be in a state of dishevelment.
__________________
Hail to the king, baby!
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 11-19-2017, 03:31 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
Casebook Supporter
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wales
Posts: 8,926
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
Don't really think the raised skirts can be considered a definite signature element. Surely any woman killed under these circumstances is going to be in a state of dishevelment.
Indeed, Harry.
__________________
Kind regards, Sam Flynn

"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 11-19-2017, 04:53 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 5,418
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
Don't really think the raised skirts can be considered a definite signature element. Surely any woman killed under these circumstances is going to be in a state of dishevelment.
Well it’s indicative of sig as it shows a desire to expose the area of focus.
And even throwing SIG out altogether it’s a similarity, and a quirky one at that, with the other ripper victims.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.