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  #51  
Old 11-17-2017, 03:09 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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From sloppy angry penknife stabber to someone who created such an impression that surgically trained people were looked at, is a crevasse to far to be bridged in 1 month.
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  #52  
Old 11-17-2017, 04:33 PM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
From sloppy angry penknife stabber to someone who created such an impression that surgically trained people were looked at, is a crevasse to far to be bridged in 1 month.
For once we actually agree, Michael. That’s one of the reasons I’ve sat on the fence about Tabram. There are circumstantial similarities to the other murders but I can’t see the killer’s signature evolving to that degree within a month.
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  #53  
Old 11-17-2017, 08:17 PM
Scott Nelson Scott Nelson is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
Paddy, yes, that's been seen before. It has nothing to do with 'our' Martha Tabram.
Was that account in your book Tom? I find it interesting, but I was never sent a review copy so can't comment any further.
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  #54  
Old 11-18-2017, 07:01 AM
etenguy etenguy is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
You don't have to conclude it was a bayonet, you only have to follow Killeen's description of the weapon as a "dagger". Something, which in length and breadth, can be very similar to bayonets of the period.
And yet it was Killeen who suggested it was not likely to have been a bayonet.

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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
The evidence suggests that she was killed with 2 weapons, one considerably smaller used in all but one wound. That doesn't suggest 1 man switching blades, that suggests a second person with a larger blade. The evidence of the soldiers is only relevant in that soldiers, and perhaps other men, were travelling in pairs that night. And the Bank Holiday allowed them to carry weapons that were dagger sized on their person.
I doubt whether the killer, if not a soldier, was bothered about adhering to who could and could not carry weapons,

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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Since only soldiers were allowed to carry those large bladed instruments openly on the street that night, and since we know soldiers were travelling in pairs that night, due to the soldier waiting for a mate, and since we have murder evidence that suggests 2 men and 1 larger sized blade, then its not too hard to connect the dots. For some.
You can connect the dots that way - perfectly plausible. But not the only speculation that is plausible.

Last edited by etenguy : 11-18-2017 at 07:13 AM.
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  #55  
Old 11-18-2017, 07:12 AM
etenguy etenguy is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
From sloppy angry penknife stabber to someone who created such an impression that surgically trained people were looked at, is a crevasse to far to be bridged in 1 month.
This I think is the strongest argument to discount Martha Tabram's murder being committed by the Ripper.

However, I work in education. I have seen learners attempt a task and mess it up. The next time they attempt the same task, they often take a very different approach. Could the Ripper have been unsatisfied by his first attempt and then change to one which proved more satisfying?
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  #56  
Old 11-18-2017, 10:46 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Could the Ripper have been unsatisfied by his first attempt and then change to one which proved more satisfying?
I get the distinct impression that Tabram's killer "enjoyed" stabbing her, somehow. Given the sheer number of stabs, he must have been on some kind of a high as he did it, and/or in the aftermath. I can't quite imagine someone coming down from that to being satisfied with a few cuts (however severe) and NO stabs to speak of.
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  #57  
Old 11-18-2017, 02:15 PM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Hi.
The overkill stabbing, could be the result of a female killer [ at least with Tabram] was Pearly poll questioned?
Regards Richard.
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  #58  
Old 11-18-2017, 07:20 PM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
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hi jon. looking at your photos of 1888 bayonets and clasp blades. with a dagger,both sides of the blade are sharpened. do you think one side of the clasp blade not being sharpened would have caused problems if trying to push it through the breastbone? or created a certain type of cut identifiable to a doctor?
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  #59  
Old 11-19-2017, 02:01 AM
etenguy etenguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I get the distinct impression that Tabram's killer "enjoyed" stabbing her, somehow. Given the sheer number of stabs, he must have been on some kind of a high as he did it, and/or in the aftermath. I can't quite imagine someone coming down from that to being satisfied with a few cuts (however severe) and NO stabs to speak of.
You may be right, or the frenzy of stabbing may have been the result of a growing dissatisfaction within him ending by killing her with a longer bladed knife out of frustration. Hence stabbing was not part of his on-going method.

The majority opinion agrees with you, hence Martha Tabram is not included in the canon. However, I am struck by all the other similarities and find it difficult to dismiss her as a potential ripper victim.
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  #60  
Old 11-19-2017, 06:41 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert St Devil View Post
hi jon. looking at your photos of 1888 bayonets and clasp blades. with a dagger,both sides of the blade are sharpened. do you think one side of the clasp blade not being sharpened would have caused problems if trying to push it through the breastbone? or created a certain type of cut identifiable to a doctor?
Hello Robert.

Interestingly, Killeen made no mention of an attempt to stab her in the breastbone with the smaller weapon. So, the killer may have not considered it.
As for myself, I would think it was expecting too much to stab through the breastbone with a penknife, yet I know others have posted press reports describing killings which say a penknife was used in such a way.

Certainly, every type of blade offers a particular shape and depth of cut which can help to identify the weapon used, or at least eliminate the majority of potential weapons.
This was known to doctors of the time.
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