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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #2171  
Old 11-17-2017, 01:25 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
you cant judge a book by its cover..or maybe the cover by the book? LOL!

SKs span the range of low life thug losers who actually look like it-like Lucas, all the way to suave smart good looking guys like bundy.
Not judging Bundy by the cover was always a very good idea...

What I am after is how we sometimes have a propensity to make shining heroes of abominable people, Abby.
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  #2172  
Old 11-17-2017, 02:50 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
I don't know much about Bible John, but I happened to see a youtube video on the Happy Face Killer, Keith Jesperson, last night. The thing that struck me in a phone interview with him, was when asked why he strangled all the victims (8) first, he said well, it worked with the first one so I kept doing it with the rest. He relished in the fact he was getting away with it. It motivated him to continue. In his first murder he was rather surprised because a lady said her boyfriend, who was not the killer, did it. This motivated him to write a letter taking responsibility because he couldn't stand someone else taking credit. All his letters included a smiley face and thus his sobriquet.

Wonder if any of these same thoughts may apply to the Whitechapel Murderer?
The part in bold above Jerry...if we look at the killer of Polly then Annie as one man, can you see any reason why his attitude might not be exactly the same as above? Posing as a client, choking or strangling, then cutting the throat twice..moving on to mutilations of the abdomen? In threads like this people seem happy to imagine multiple killers killing in a multitude of ways and with varying objectives. Don't seem to take into account killers who kill one way, succeed, and then continue to kill that same way based on the confidence they have gained.
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  #2173  
Old 11-17-2017, 09:14 PM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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Hurley says he lives at 10 Annibal St, Annibal Place?

Jeremiah Hurley deposed, - I live at 10 Annibal-place, Annibal-street, and am a carman, and am in the employ of John Smithers, of Well-street. A policeman called me at 5 o'clock, and I am always called in that manner. When there is a change of policemen they continue to call me. I have to be at work at half-past 5. On the morning of the 10th inst. I left home at 25 minutes to 6. As I was coming round Phillip-street into Pinchin-street I saw a man, who had the appearance of a tailor, standing at the corner of Pinchin-street. The man appeared as though he was waiting to go to work. I saw no one else until I got to the arch where the body was lying. I there saw an inspector and an officer in plain clothes. At that time the body had been found.

Detective-Inspector Henry Moore said, - I have charge of this case under the direction of Superintendent Arnold. I produce a plan of Pinchin-street and surrounding neighbourhood, and it is an accurate one. The red cross on the plan denotes the position in which the body was found. Every effort had been made to identify the body, but without success. There was nothing to show how the body came there or who placed it in the position in which it was found. I have had the chemise that was found on the body cleansed, and I now produce it. (The chemise was 37in. in length, common material, and stitched, but certainly not by an experienced needlewoman. It had evidently been home-made by a poor person.)

The CORONER here read a statement taken down by the police from the man who was sleeping with Hurley, and it simply corroborated the latter's evidence.


does anyone have that statement?

Last edited by RockySullivan : 11-17-2017 at 09:16 PM.
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  #2174  
Old 11-17-2017, 09:36 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Hurley says he lives at 10 Annibal St, Annibal Place?

Jeremiah Hurley deposed, - I live at 10 Annibal-place, Annibal-street, and am a carman, and am in the employ of John Smithers, of Well-street. A policeman called me at 5 o'clock, and I am always called in that manner. When there is a change of policemen they continue to call me. I have to be at work at half-past 5. On the morning of the 10th inst. I left home at 25 minutes to 6. As I was coming round Phillip-street into Pinchin-street I saw a man, who had the appearance of a tailor, standing at the corner of Pinchin-street. The man appeared as though he was waiting to go to work. I saw no one else until I got to the arch where the body was lying. I there saw an inspector and an officer in plain clothes. At that time the body had been found.

Detective-Inspector Henry Moore said, - I have charge of this case under the direction of Superintendent Arnold. I produce a plan of Pinchin-street and surrounding neighbourhood, and it is an accurate one. The red cross on the plan denotes the position in which the body was found. Every effort had been made to identify the body, but without success. There was nothing to show how the body came there or who placed it in the position in which it was found. I have had the chemise that was found on the body cleansed, and I now produce it. (The chemise was 37in. in length, common material, and stitched, but certainly not by an experienced needlewoman. It had evidently been home-made by a poor person.)

The CORONER here read a statement taken down by the police from the man who was sleeping with Hurley, and it simply corroborated the latter's evidence.


does anyone have that statement?
Hurley wasn't sleeping under the arch. I think that was a misprint by someone. The Annibal address was also a mishearing of the street he lived on, which was 10 Ellen Place, Ellen Street.
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  #2175  
Old 11-17-2017, 10:53 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Christer,

This is the tie in to the journalist connection. This is from the Echo on September 18th, 1888:

Is there a clue? The police apparently believe there is. The following facts have just come to hand in connection with it:- On the day of the murder (the 8th inst.) a man was seen in the lavatory of the City News Rooms, 4 Ludgate circus buildings, changing his clothes. He departed hurriedly, leaving behind him a pair of trousers, a shirt, and a pair of socks. Unfortunately no one connected with the establishment saw the man, or he would certainly have been stopped and questioned as to why he was changing his clothes there, and leaving the old ones behind.
Mr. Walker, the proprietor of the news rooms, states that he did not hear of the occurrence until late in the afternoon, when his attention was called to the clothes in the lavatory. He did not at the time attach any importance to the fact, and the clothes were thrown into the dust box, and placed outside, being carted away in the City Sewers cart on the Monday. On the following Tuesday, however, he received a visit from a man who said he was a police officer, and asked for the clothes which had been left there on the Saturday. Mr. walker replied that if he wanted them he would have to go to the Commissioners of the City Sewers, telling him at the same time what he had done with them. Two detectives called on Thursday last, and had an interview with Mr. Walker, and they succeeded in finding a man who saw the visitor changing his clothes in the lavatory. He has given the police a description of him. He is stated to be a man of respectable appearance, about thirty years of age, and wearing a dark moustache. The police are very reticent about the matter, and decline to give any information on the subject. They evidently attach some importance to the affair. Mr. Walker again received a visit from two detectives yesterday morning. The police are now trying to trace the clothes. There is a hope that they may furnish some clue which will lead to the identity of the man they are seeking.


Notice the address in the above article of the City News Rooms, at No. 4 Ludgate Circus. That address is caddy corner to the King Lud Pub to the SW. The King Lud Pub is where John Arnold supposedly ran onto his informant the following year on almost the exact same date. The Central News Agency had the address of No. 5 New Bridge Street, which is either right next door or the same building as 4, Ludgate Circus. Are the City News Rooms aka the Central News Agency? The journalist, newsvendor, etc. connection combined with the John Arnold story all seems too much for coincidence in my mind.

Last edited by jerryd : 11-17-2017 at 11:07 PM.
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  #2176  
Old 11-17-2017, 11:10 PM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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Hurley wasn't sleeping under the arch. I think that was a misprint by someone. The Annibal address was also a mishearing of the street he lived on, which was 10 Ellen Place, Ellen Street.
thanks jerry. do you know who first suggested Lydia Hart as the victim? it's interesting they originally thought she lived on Ellen but she actually lived on Pinchin. from Rob Clacks article in ripperologist 143: Trying to establish the identity of the woman was no easy task. There was a rumour that the remains were
those of Lydia Hart, a mother of two boys, who was said to be living in Ellen Street. Her friends began a search
for her in the area and heard news that she was in the local Infirmary, where her sons and friends subsequently
found her. She had apparently gone on a bit of a spree and needed medical treatment. It also turned out that she
did not live in Ellen Street, but in fact in a room above a shop in Pinchin Stree
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  #2177  
Old 11-18-2017, 12:48 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Christer,

This is the tie in to the journalist connection. This is from the Echo on September 18th, 1888:

Is there a clue? The police apparently believe there is. The following facts have just come to hand in connection with it:- On the day of the murder (the 8th inst.) a man was seen in the lavatory of the City News Rooms, 4 Ludgate circus buildings, changing his clothes. He departed hurriedly, leaving behind him a pair of trousers, a shirt, and a pair of socks. Unfortunately no one connected with the establishment saw the man, or he would certainly have been stopped and questioned as to why he was changing his clothes there, and leaving the old ones behind.
Mr. Walker, the proprietor of the news rooms, states that he did not hear of the occurrence until late in the afternoon, when his attention was called to the clothes in the lavatory. He did not at the time attach any importance to the fact, and the clothes were thrown into the dust box, and placed outside, being carted away in the City Sewers cart on the Monday. On the following Tuesday, however, he received a visit from a man who said he was a police officer, and asked for the clothes which had been left there on the Saturday. Mr. walker replied that if he wanted them he would have to go to the Commissioners of the City Sewers, telling him at the same time what he had done with them. Two detectives called on Thursday last, and had an interview with Mr. Walker, and they succeeded in finding a man who saw the visitor changing his clothes in the lavatory. He has given the police a description of him. He is stated to be a man of respectable appearance, about thirty years of age, and wearing a dark moustache. The police are very reticent about the matter, and decline to give any information on the subject. They evidently attach some importance to the affair. Mr. Walker again received a visit from two detectives yesterday morning. The police are now trying to trace the clothes. There is a hope that they may furnish some clue which will lead to the identity of the man they are seeking.


Notice the address in the above article of the City News Rooms, at No. 4 Ludgate Circus. That address is caddy corner to the King Lud Pub to the SW. The King Lud Pub is where John Arnold supposedly ran onto his informant the following year on almost the exact same date. The Central News Agency had the address of No. 5 New Bridge Street, which is either right next door or the same building as 4, Ludgate Circus. Are the City News Rooms aka the Central News Agency? The journalist, newsvendor, etc. connection combined with the John Arnold story all seems too much for coincidence in my mind.
5 New Bridge Street was an address given for the CNA, Jerry, and that seemingly takes us 35 yards south of Ludgate Cirkus, on the western side of todays Farringdon Street.

It is a strange story, and it defies the laws of coincidences, agreed. Apparently, though, the clothes do not seem to have been bloodstained? Surely, that would not have gone unnoticed?
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  #2178  
Old 11-18-2017, 01:55 AM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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5 New Bridge Street was an address given for the CNA, Jerry, and that seemingly takes us 35 yards south of Ludgate Cirkus, on the western side of todays Farringdon Street.

It is a strange story, and it defies the laws of coincidences, agreed. Apparently, though, the clothes do not seem to have been bloodstained? Surely, that would not have gone unnoticed?
Yea and why change the socks?
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  #2179  
Old 11-18-2017, 09:13 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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About two weeks after this incident (around September 23rd), a brown paper parcel was discovered thrown over some railings at the corner of Devonshire and Great Portland Street by PC 457D. The parcel contained some underclothing which consisted of a drab flannel shirt, drab pants, a pair of cuffs and a collar. The shirt and pants were saturated with blood and the cuffs and collar only splashed with blood.

In regard to the September 8th clothing incident this may be relevant. Maybe not.
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  #2180  
Old 11-18-2017, 02:48 PM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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About two weeks after this incident (around September 23rd), a brown paper parcel was discovered thrown over some railings at the corner of Devonshire and Great Portland Street by PC 457D. The parcel contained some underclothing which consisted of a drab flannel shirt, drab pants, a pair of cuffs and a collar. The shirt and pants were saturated with blood and the cuffs and collar only splashed with blood.

In regard to the September 8th clothing incident this may be relevant. Maybe not.
jerry it matches how the killer seemed to like to dump over railings. my london geography is terrible but it looks like this was near to the 83 tottenham torso? Why would the bloody clothes be dumped over the railings rather than thrown in the trash, they were in a brown paper parcel after all? i'm not sure i'm aware of what the london garbage system was like
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