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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #1001  
Old 10-23-2017, 01:46 AM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
Yes, and I see no new primary evidence other than researchers seemingly embellishing the facts to support the serial killer/murder theory.

www.trevormarridiott.co.uk
Trevor, did you miss what josh just posted about the Whitehall tipster?
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  #1002  
Old 10-23-2017, 02:12 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Originally Posted by RockySullivan View Post
Trevor, did you miss what josh just posted about the Whitehall tipster?
No I didn't miss it but does it have any direct bearing on whether or not the torsos were murdered. or there was a serial killer at work?

Does that news item appear in any London Newspapers or anywhere else for that matter?

So from an evidential point of view it is unsafe to rely on that article in its current form.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
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  #1003  
Old 10-23-2017, 02:19 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
No I didn't miss it but does it have any direct bearing on whether or not the torsos were murdered. or there was a serial killer at work?

Does that news item appear in any London Newspapers or anywhere else for that matter?

So from an evidential point of view it is unsafe to rely on that article in its current form.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
I have to agree with you on that Trevor.
Until some actual source is provided, the report is unusable for any purpose other than to encourage research into if it is based on any fact.
I am sure if it is one of the researchers will find a reference.
Until then it's just another vague possability.


Steve
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  #1004  
Old 10-23-2017, 02:20 AM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
No I didn't miss it but does it have any direct bearing on whether or not the torsos were murdered. or there was a serial killer at work?

Does that news item appear in any London Newspapers or anywhere else for that matter?

So from an evidential point of view it is unsafe to rely on that article in its current form.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
So this is my point, since it doesn't have to do with with cause of death it should be disregarded? It's still a new lead just posted a few hours ago, so how can you say "we cannot go any further" haha
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  #1005  
Old 10-23-2017, 02:43 AM
Observer Observer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
No I didn't miss it but does it have any direct bearing on whether or not the torsos were murdered. or there was a serial killer at work?

Does that news item appear in any London Newspapers or anywhere else for that matter?

So from an evidential point of view it is unsafe to rely on that article in its current form.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
Absolutely. The fact that this report did not appear in any of the leading London newspapers is significant. I'd like to bet that Arnold tried to peddle his story to a number of newspapers at the time including the Morning Advertiser. By the time the story has reached Lancashire it's been garbled to include the Whitehall mystery.
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  #1006  
Old 10-23-2017, 02:49 AM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
Yes, and I see no new primary evidence other than researchers seemingly embellishing the facts to support the serial killer/murder theory.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
Researchers generally dig up material that others then use to support a theory they have. No one was ever convicted of any of these crimes, Whitechapel Murders or torso cases, so claiming there was a Fenian plot, or each one was an individual murder or organs were removed at mortuaries, or a foreign sailor later convicted of murder whose motive was financial gain was in Whitechapel and did one or more is all just theory too, often twisting factual evidence but mainly playing on the lack of evidence caused by the age of the case. Who decides who can and cannot theorise if it is something boils down to just personal opinion?

Although I agree the 1889 news report is retrospective.
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Last edited by Debra A : 10-23-2017 at 02:52 AM.
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  #1007  
Old 10-23-2017, 03:47 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Funnily enough I just read this, from the Lancashire Evening Post, 16th Sept '89;

"It seems the remarkable story told of the visit paid by the man Leary to the London office of the New York Herald is not without parallel in connection with the revolting crimes which in the past 18 months have occurred in the metropolis. The Leary incident has recalled the fact that a few nights before the horrible discovery of the dead body of a murdered woman in one of the recesses of the basement of the new offices intended as the headquarters of the metropolitan police on the Victoria Embankment, a man answering the same description entered the office of the Morning Advertiser and stated that the remains of a woman were to be found in that spot. The man asked a fee for the information, but before this was paid a reporter was despatched to the buildings to ascertain, with the aid of the police, whether there was any foundation for the story. Search was made in vain as in Back Church-lane the other day, but a day or two afterwards the mutilated body of a female was discovered in the precise spot which had been indicated by the mysterious informant."
Hi Joshua/all

Ive just been rearranging my ripper collection, Pamphlets/facsimiles/graphics etc. It took me a while but Ive done a bit of cataloguing too. Reading the article that you just quoted reminded me of an article in True Crime magazine of April 2002 called The Shoeblack Connection. If its of interest to anyone Im quite happy to dig it back out and give out any info. As far as I can recall its unaccredited.
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  #1008  
Old 10-23-2017, 04:16 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Hi Joshua/all

Ive just been rearranging my ripper collection, Pamphlets/facsimiles/graphics etc. It took me a while but Ive done a bit of cataloguing too. Reading the article that you just quoted reminded me of an article in True Crime magazine of April 2002 called The Shoeblack Connection. If its of interest to anyone Im quite happy to dig it back out and give out any info. As far as I can recall its unaccredited.
Hey Herlock, I was thinking of starting a thread on that very subject!
There's three mentions of shoeblacks that I can think of; one was a witness to the Lambeth blind-school arm find, one was found asleep under the railway arches on Pinchin Street, and I think John Cleary was described as looking like a shoeblack. Whether there's any connection between them, or just coincidence, is anyone's gues. But any more info you've got would be very interesting to hear.
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  #1009  
Old 10-23-2017, 04:21 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Hey Herlock, I was thinking of starting a thread on that very subject!
There's three mentions of shoeblacks that I can think of; one was a witness to the Lambeth blind-school arm find, one was found asleep under the railway arches on Pinchin Street, and I think John Cleary was described as looking like a shoeblack. Whether there's any connection between them, or just coincidence, is anyone's gues. But any more info you've got would be very interesting to hear.
Hi Joshua,

John Cleary features heavily in the article as far as I can recall. Later today Ill dig out the magazine
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  #1010  
Old 10-23-2017, 04:36 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Holy Moly Joshua!

Thanks for posting this. I had never heard that the same type of scenario happened in the Whitehall case. Very nice find there. It fits Arnold's MO but I wonder how much truth there is to it? I have never found an incident in the papers in 1888 that describes this. If true it really puts the spotlight on John Arnold and who his informant might be? I've often thought maybe there were bodies being cut up and dumped in order to collect reward money.
Hi Jerry, I thought you'd like that. I can't claim any credit for finding it, it was in the book of torso press cuttings recommended by Steve earlier. But it did leap out at me when I read it. Whether there's any truth to it is another matrer. I haven't found any corroboration yet either, and you'd think it would have been mentioned at the time if there was something to it.
As for cutting up bodies for money, who knows? It seems a bit extreme to me (although there are obviously historical precedents), but some people were certainly willing to make money from the murders; I believe a journalist was prosecuted for selling completely fictitious stories about the Rainham case.
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