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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Martha Tabram

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  #501  
Old 10-19-2017, 05:29 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by etenguy View Post
For me, one killer is more likely, not because the Tabram murder evidence points one way or the other in isolation, but when considered in a series, it becomes clearer. We have already provided plenty of reasons to consider Tabram to be a Ripper victim, with the only substantive objection being the way the murderer changed the way he used his knife.
It seems you lean towards the single killer because you have decided Tabram was killed by JtR?
Maybe it's easier to accept the soldiers theory if we reject Tabram as a Ripper killing. I just don't agree about there being "plenty of reasons" for having her as a Ripper victim.
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  #502  
Old 10-19-2017, 05:32 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Doesn't your suspect wear a peaked cap?



There's no cause to see it as being aimed at anyone, it's about the knife, not a person. I was assuming you knew what whittling was. Never mind, nothing was meant by it.




So are we ignoring the soldiers, or could this single killer have been a soldier, just not two soldiers?
Hi wick
Yes my suspect does where a peaked cap, but what does it have to do with what we’re talking about?

RE the soldiers: no not ignoring them.. I said your idea was certainly possible. Also yes the killer could be the single soldier. There’s nothing that negates the soldier from being the ripper.
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  #503  
Old 10-20-2017, 04:37 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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I think using the Evolutionary Argument presumes leaps too large in too small an interval of time. No-one suggested that the killer of Martha had any skill or knowledge, despite the multiple stabs in some major organs, yet a month later he is assumed to have the skill set of a surgical student or better.

If you want to see evolution, look for the more gradual and logical progression from Polly to Annie. Street to backyard, greater privacy...although that could be argued since that area was looked down upon by many windows, some less stressful time to complete some desired actions, and the time to demonstrate what abilities he did have. I think this man could easily be someone who routinely butchers animals and does so quite speedily.

From the Star; "When Sergeant Thick learned that Isenschmid had told a number of women in Holloway that he was Leather Apron, a watch was put out for this promising suspect. Isenschmid was arrested on 12 September and taken to Holloway police station, where upon he was judged to be insane. He was sent first to the Islington workhouse, and later on 17 September, to the Bow infirmary asylum, Fairfield Road, Bow. On the 18 September, Inspector Abberline reported that, 'Although we are unable at present to procure any evidence to connect him with the murders, he appears to be the most likely person that has come under our notice to have committed the crimes'

To me that would be a very reasonable explanation on why the skill set seen in those first 2 Canonical murders seems to vanish.
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  #504  
Old 10-20-2017, 05:07 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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To me that would be a very reasonable explanation on why the skill set seen in those first 2 Canonical murders seems to vanish.
I don't propose we discuss this further on this thread, Michael, but I'd just observe that Eddowes' eviscerations were no less skillful (I use the term very loosely) than Chapman's.
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  #505  
Old 10-20-2017, 07:32 AM
Darryl Kenyon Darryl Kenyon is offline
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My trouble with the two soldier killer theory [ i know these points have been mentioned before but here goes ] 1- We have to believe Poll that her and Martha where indeed drinking with two soldiers that night, yet we haven't any other witnesses, [ despite them frequenting several pubs ] corroborating this. 2- Pc Barrett said the soldier whom he saw was from the Grenadier guards and not the Coldstream, [ Poll ]. I believe the uniforms are similar, red tunics ? and either could have made a mistake but a difference none the less. Plus would there not be plenty of soldiers on leave that night with it being a Bank holiday. 3- Pc Barrett saw the soldier at 2am a full two hours since the couples separated. Also Pc Barrett said he saw a private hanging around for a chum. Yet if it was the same two soldiers that should have been the Corporal, since the private was the one who went off with Martha. 4- Now if i had just seen a copper on patrol near George yard who spoke to me, would i then go on to help a friend commit a murder with a weapon which could link me to the murder IE a dagger ? I very much doubt it. Even if he wanted to help his friend i would tell him to scarper rather than stand around thrusting a weapon into the victim who was almost certainly dead by then, and if he was the one using the pen knife as such, the idea that he would stab Martha 38 times whilst he knew a policeman was nearby is just daft.
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  #506  
Old 10-20-2017, 07:58 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Originally Posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
My trouble with the two soldier killer theory [ i know these points have been mentioned before but here goes ] 1- We have to believe Poll that her and Martha where indeed drinking with two soldiers that night, yet we haven't any other witnesses, [ despite them frequenting several pubs ] corroborating this. 2- Pc Barrett said the soldier whom he saw was from the Grenadier guards and not the Coldstream, [ Poll ]. I believe the uniforms are similar, red tunics ? and either could have made a mistake but a difference none the less. Plus would there not be plenty of soldiers on leave that night with it being a Bank holiday. 3- Pc Barrett saw the soldier at 2am a full two hours since the couples separated. Also Pc Barrett said he saw a private hanging around for a chum. Yet if it was the same two soldiers that should have been the Corporal, since the private was the one who went off with Martha. 4- Now if i had just seen a copper on patrol near George yard who spoke to me, would i then go on to help a friend commit a murder with a weapon which could link me to the murder IE a dagger ? I very much doubt it. Even if he wanted to help his friend i would tell him to scarper rather than stand around thrusting a weapon into the victim who was almost certainly dead by then, and if he was the one using the pen knife as such, the idea that he would stab Martha 38 times whilst he knew a policeman was nearby is just daft.
I don't think you need to use either of the 2 stories Darryl to recognize the validity of the premise itself, we know that soldiers were in pairs...corroborated by these stories in part, and we know that soldiers were permitted to wear larger blades in public due to the Bank Holiday.
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  #507  
Old 10-20-2017, 12:45 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
My trouble with the two soldier killer theory [ i know these points have been mentioned before but here goes ] 1- We have to believe Poll that her and Martha where indeed drinking with two soldiers that night, yet we haven't any other witnesses, [ despite them frequenting several pubs ] corroborating this. 2- Pc Barrett said the soldier whom he saw was from the Grenadier guards and not the Coldstream, [ Poll ]. I believe the uniforms are similar, red tunics ? and either could have made a mistake but a difference none the less. Plus would there not be plenty of soldiers on leave that night with it being a Bank holiday. 3- Pc Barrett saw the soldier at 2am a full two hours since the couples separated. Also Pc Barrett said he saw a private hanging around for a chum. Yet if it was the same two soldiers that should have been the Corporal, since the private was the one who went off with Martha. 4- Now if i had just seen a copper on patrol near George yard who spoke to me, would i then go on to help a friend commit a murder with a weapon which could link me to the murder IE a dagger ? I very much doubt it. Even if he wanted to help his friend i would tell him to scarper rather than stand around thrusting a weapon into the victim who was almost certainly dead by then, and if he was the one using the pen knife as such, the idea that he would stab Martha 38 times whilst he knew a policeman was nearby is just daft.
Some of the latter points you raised Darryl seem to indicate you misunderstood the argument, they were never proposed.
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  #508  
Old 10-20-2017, 01:13 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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RE the soldiers: no not ignoring them.. I said your idea was certainly possible. Also yes the killer could be the single soldier. There’s nothing that negates the soldier from being the ripper.
Ok thanks Abby.
I wasn't sure if you reject the soldier argument altogether, or just the 2-man theory.

I readily admit your proposal of a man with two knives is quite feasible, it's just the caveat I have in him using a penknife if he had a dagger on him. I think that is the Achilles Heel, so to speak.

However, that said, are you familiar with the suspect pulled in following the Kelly murder?
He was a well-dressed man, carrying a black bag, the bag was searched at the station....
"....on the bag's being examined it was found to contain a very sharp dagger, a clasp knife, two pairs of very long and curious looking scissors, and two life preservers."
Evening News.

So there's the dagger & clasp-knife together.
If it were true, it might be of interest to some, but other press reports give slightly different contents.

The Daily Telegraph reported:
"...and in it were found two pairs of scissors, a dagger and sheath, and a life preserver."

The Star.
"...it was found to contain a very sharp dagger, a clasp knife, two pairs of very long and curious looking scissors, and two life preservers."

Once again, we don't know who to believe.

So, the sticking point for me is, that if he had a dagger, why would he use a clasp-knife/penknife about 38 times, before he used the one weapon that could finish the job.
I'm not saying he couldn't, it just requires some explanation.
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  #509  
Old 10-20-2017, 01:24 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Ok thanks Abby.
I wasn't sure if you reject the soldier argument altogether, or just the 2-man theory.

I readily admit your proposal of a man with two knives is quite feasible, it's just the caveat I have in him using a penknife if he had a dagger on him. I think that is the Achilles Heel, so to speak.

However, that said, are you familiar with the suspect pulled in following the Kelly murder?
He was a well-dressed man, carrying a black bag, the bag was searched at the station....
"....on the bag's being examined it was found to contain a very sharp dagger, a clasp knife, two pairs of very long and curious looking scissors, and two life preservers."
Evening News.

So there's the dagger & clasp-knife together.
If it were true, it might be of interest to some, but other press reports give slightly different contents.

The Daily Telegraph reported:
"...and in it were found two pairs of scissors, a dagger and sheath, and a life preserver."

The Star.
"...it was found to contain a very sharp dagger, a clasp knife, two pairs of very long and curious looking scissors, and two life preservers."

Once again, we don't know who to believe.

So, the sticking point for me is, that if he had a dagger, why would he use a clasp-knife/penknife about 38 times, before he used the one weapon that could finish the job.
I'm not saying he couldn't, it just requires some explanation.
Hi Wick
who was the man pulled in and where are those quotes from?

re the knives. I think in the heat of the moment he have just used the smaller knife first since that's what he may have been accustomed to using before, especially if hes the same man who attacked Millwood an or Wilson before with a small knife.

also, since in terms of suspects for Tabrams murder, we have no one else except the soldier/s, Polls and the PCs confusion notwithstanding, I think the soldier(or someone dressed like one) is the most likely suspect other than an unsub of course, and could still have been the ripper.
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #510  
Old 10-20-2017, 01:48 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi Wick
who was the man pulled in and where are those quotes from?
The character was charged with being drunk, so we do get his name:
John Benjamin Perryman, 40, hairdresser, living in Pennethorne-road, Peckham,

There are some reports in:
http://www.casebook.org/press_report...l?printer=true
http://www.casebook.org/press_report...l?printer=true
https://casebook.org/press_reports/m...l?printer=true
http://www.casebook.org/press_report...l?printer=true

If you click on Press Reports, in the left side column, then in the 'full text search' box write...
life preserver

You will get a few more.
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